SCBWI's Blueboard - A Message & Chat Board

Musicians Do It: Why Can't We?

Discussion started on

This is a vent.

You listen to songs that appear to rhyme but really don't, at least not with the strictness to which writers are held--but then who would listen anyway? Too monotonous. Ommmmmmm.  (I'm not talking meter. I'm talking rhyme versus a sound. Talk and walk rhyme. Talk and hawk don't but share a sound.) Does it stop adults or kids from listening to music that is slant rhyme? Nope. Some of these songs become "anthems" for a message. Some become an individual's "personal song."  It works, if done well.

There's a HUGE pop star whose lyrics make no sense (if you really listen to them), but she paints a vibrant, emotional picture, especially when combined with the music. She keeps meter/beat by using/stretching/etc. her voice--granted, something writers can't do.

My point is--and this energy comes from different sources, experiences, and levels beyond writing--is that even a bestseller might have been something more. The world is ever-changing. The writing rules...not-so-much in a way that expands, rather than confines. I'm not addressing grammar, a well-constructed sentence, or plot in writing. I'm addressing "the air in the room." It's heavy. Hard to breathe.

Unfortunately, I can see where traditional publishing can further decline--not because of self-publishing "bad" writers, but because of rules that are so hard and fast.

((((And I could easily argue against my vent!))))

Vent over.  :stars3  Love and light to all.  :star2



#1 - June 10, 2017, 12:43 PM
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 12:45 PM by Arona »
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Einstein.

Member
Poster Plus
  • *
  • SCBWI Member
  • SCBWI PAL
  • SCBWI Region sfnortheastbay
Well, I understand your vent. But, as someone who has written several books that rhyme, I'm a stickler for true rhyme v near rhyme. And, I don't like lyrics that don't rhyme --- it feels and sounds very lazy to my ear. Give me good old Cole Porter song any day.  I do think that near rhyme in prose can make a story more lyrical and I have nothing against that. But, to me, rhyme is rhyme --- pure and simple.
#2 - June 10, 2017, 02:31 PM
Bedtime In The Meadow, tiger tales '13
A Cookie For Santa, Sleeping Bear, '14
Under The Sleepy Stars, Tiger Tales '15
Beaver's Tail, Sleeping Bear '15

Poster Plus
  • ***
  • SCBWI Member
  • SCBWI Region canadaeast
I think it's the music that makes the difference. More like poetry where non-rhyming & slant rhyme is fine.   
The beat of the music  tells you where the stress falls & the singer can stretch out syllables. So the emphasis can land on the shared sounds.  With written word you don't have that beat to back you up so you're depending on the rhythm of the words alone.  Anything that doesn't roll off the tongue will stand out like a sore thumb & is distracting to the reader.
#3 - June 11, 2017, 04:30 PM

Member.
Poster Plus
  • *
  • SCBWI Member
  • SCBWI Region ireland
I agree with Marla.
It is not the words, the context in which they are written or even the way they are expressed. It is the fact there is a melody and rhythm. I think that most would admit that you have to be in real state of mind to actually "listen" to the lyrics. We hear the music before we listen to the words of a song.
Incidentally, in one of my stories I had a characters croon out a tune and ditched it because I thought it didn't rhyme:
Here goes:
Sing, sing, singing,
Sing, singing, singing as I go strolling on,
Sing, singing, singing,
Won't you sing along?
I've never been the best at rhyming but it suited my character's personality.
#4 - June 12, 2017, 05:10 AM

Global Moderator
Poster Plus
  • ***
  • SCBWI Member
  • SCBWI Moderator
  • SCBWI PAL
  • SCBWI Region longislandny
I think we also have to consider kids as readers here. Children are still learning about language. They won't know what slant rhyme is. To them rhyming means words that end with the same sound.

I also agree about the music and voice adding to the mood. I do listen to words first. I'm a story girl. I want a story in my songs. I can't stand Bohemian Rhapsody specifically because the words make no sense.  (Although I do appreciate the music with no words.) But lyrics, like poetry, may have a meaning for someone else that I can't see. Also, we associate songs with moments in our lives, giving them more meaning (depth) than they'd otherwise have. The music and the lyrics can be taken separately sometimes. Other times, like with Piano Man, they have to match the way words and images must match in a picture book. 

One thing about what you said, Arona, confused me. To my ear, hawk and talk do rhyme. Rhyme is about sound, not spelling. There may be regions where these words aren't pronounced with the same sounds, but they are where I live. So, bread rhymes with red and said. Rhyming rules are sound rules. You seemed to be contradicting that in your rant, but perhaps I misunderstood.
#5 - June 12, 2017, 10:53 AM

Admins and Mods Emeriti
Poster Plus
  • *
  • SCBWI Member
  • SCBWI PAL
  • SCBWI Region midatlantic
One thing about what you said, Arona, confused me. To my ear, hawk and talk do rhyme. Rhyme is about sound, not spelling. There may be regions where these words aren't pronounced with the same sounds, but they are where I live. So, bread rhymes with red and said. Rhyming rules are sound rules. You seemed to be contradicting that in your rant, but perhaps I misunderstood.

I'm sure Arona knows rhyming is about sound.  In various dialects/accents, hawk and talk definitely don't rhyme.  They do in yours and mine, but I'm aware that my way of talking isn't the only way.  Think Long Island/New Jersey and try to say talk and hawk.

#6 - June 12, 2017, 11:32 AM
GROUNDHUG DAY (Disney-Hyperion, 2017)
VAMPIRINA AT THE BEACH (Disney-Hyperion, 2017)
PIGLOO (Henry Holt, 2016)
among others

Global Moderator
Poster Plus
  • ***
  • SCBWI Member
  • SCBWI Moderator
  • SCBWI PAL
  • SCBWI Region longislandny
I'm sure Arona knows rhyming is about sound.  In various dialects/accents, hawk and talk definitely don't rhyme.  They do in yours and mine, but I'm aware that my way of talking isn't the only way.  Think Long Island/New Jersey and try to say talk and hawk.



I'm on Long Island. If I go Brooklyn, I hear a slight difference. This is why I brought up regional speech. It makes things much harder on the picture book author than the singer. The song is in the singer's accent, but the picture book is in the accent of the reader, rather of every reader no matter where they're from. I think this is part of why we can get away with less variation. I use dictionary pronunciation guides in my poems and picture books to be sure convention agrees with my rhymes.

"Talk and walk rhyme. Talk and hawk don't but share a sound.)" This is the part that's confusing me. To me, they share the "awk" sound. I suppose Arona could be referring just to the final "k."
#7 - June 12, 2017, 11:59 AM
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 06:42 PM by Debbie Vilardi »

Nope...Arona was thinking one thing and typing another.  :lol4  But there's no disagreement that rhymes won't always rhyme depending upon the region.
#8 - June 12, 2017, 01:06 PM
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Einstein.

Member.
Poster Plus
  • *
  • SCBWI Member
  • SCBWI Region ireland
Just a post script. I think most of are agreed that rhymes don't always have to "rhyme". It isn't about the similarity in sound, more the rhythm. Rhymes have a beat that humans identify with. When you have a rhyme, quite often you feel yourself crooning a tune, not "saying". Rhymes are physically expressive.
#9 - June 24, 2017, 06:19 AM

Global Moderator
Poster Plus
  • ***
  • SCBWI Member
  • SCBWI Moderator
  • SCBWI PAL
  • SCBWI Region longislandny
Yes, verse is really about meter, but if you are going to rhyme, you have to be spot on in the kids' market.
#10 - June 25, 2017, 04:27 PM

Members:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.