SCBWI's Blueboard - A Message & Chat Board
Writer's Room => Research => Topic started by: Ev on September 17, 2015, 08:45 PM
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In my picture book about KY, I had a sentence that said, "Beth has a basketball goal in her driveway."
My NY editor changed 'goal' to 'hoop.' I was fine with that, until I saw someone from New England use 'hoop.' I would never say 'hoop' myself, and so I started wondering if it's a regional difference.
Please tell me which you use and where you're from. If it's a KY thing (and not just me), or even a Southern thing, then I think I'll ask my editor to have us switch it back to 'goal.'
Thank you for any feedback you can give me.
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Ev, to me a hoop is a basket--a physical object. A goal is a two or three point score--an intangible thing.
I can understand why a Univ. of Kentucky fan doesn't have much experience with goals. :grin3
ETA: Okay, I really enjoyed typing that, but on further reflection, I think I call it a "goal," too. (I would say, "Ev, you run down to the far goal and I'll inbound the ball." Does that sound right to you? It does to me.)
I ran a quick search and came up with this. Don't know if it's accurate, but it says that a cheap set is a hoop, and an expensive set is a goal. Course, they're trying to sell them to you. http://www.firstteaminc.com/basketball-goal-vs-basketball-hoop.php
My Dad grew up in Southern Indiana, so his vocab is geographically very near yours. He also has some ins in the Indiana basketball community. (They live in Bloomington.) May I ask him what he thinks? I don't want to violate any Board privacy.
Say--a quick call to the UK athletic director might do the trick, too. You've got the media credentials to ask, and if the UK AD or bball coach agrees with you, that's good enough for anybody.
But my crack about goals still stands. :grin3
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In my world (I'm in MA, grew up in CT, but "my world" is living with super sporty 12yo and hubsy) basketball has a hoop. I'm trying to think of a context where I'd use goal, but can't! Like, I'd say, hey you scored 8 points! But wouldn't say, hey, you scored 4 goals! Things like..."drive to the hoop," etc. When I hear "goal" it's associated with football or soccer.
Katie's example didn't sound right to me. Sorry, Katie! :flowers2
But, that is in my world. I'm no expert!
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Ev,
In my world (Missouri, with a 15 y-o boy who plays basketball), goal is the physical object through which one would "shoot hoops."
Jody
Dews, :dr
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We say hoop here in the Carolinas but also in WA.
Dewsy is bad. :lol4
Vijaya
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I've never lived in the South, but it's hoop everywhere in the States that I have lived (CA, NJ, WA, and PA).
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:lol5 Katie, you're so much fun!
Yes, I had already looked at that site before I posted here. It's clear that they themselves (they're located in KS) prefer 'goal'--"A complete basketball system consists of the same general parts, whether it is an in ground basketball goal, a portable basketball goal, or an adjustable portable goal."
I had also read a discussion online where people were disagreeing about what the thing should be called, but nobody said where they lived, so it wasn't helping me.
By all means, please ask your dad what he thinks. I have a nephew who was the Wildcat mascot for UK when he was in college, and I've been trying to call and ask him the question, but haven't gotten through to him yet. (Just a funny side note, when his son was about two and a half and I was babysitting him, we were using a set of different colored geometric blocks to fill in puzzle outlines. He, quite seriously, assured me that he couldn't use any of the orange blocks, because orange was Tennessee's color. Yep, we here in KY take our basketball very seriously. :grin3 )
I appreciate all of you who have chimed in with your responses. It's interesting and helpful to hear the differences.
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(Just a funny side note, when his son was about two and a half and I was babysitting him, we were using a set of different colored geometric blocks to fill in puzzle outlines. He, quite seriously, assured me that he couldn't use any of the orange blocks, because orange was Tennessee's color. Yep, we here in KY take our basketball very seriously. :grin3 )
:lol4 What a great story!!!
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You have a lot of great resources here, Ev. Just to put my .02 in, my guys are college bb fanatics and have traveled throughout the Big Ten. I have never heard "goal" used in this way. AFAIK, it's a hoop. Let me text my son and ask what he thinks. He's a NBA D-League broadcaster.
Eta: My son says if universality is the objective, he'd recommend hoop. But if authenticity to a region is more important, go ahead with goal.
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Hoop. Definitely hoop. California.
People also refer to the basket as in He's under the basket. Never goal.
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Ev, that's a wonderful story about your great nephew! :applause
My dad--who grew up just over the river, but on the correct side of it--says they usually called it a basket, but hoop or goal were also used. He did say he's certain that whatever it's called in Kentucky is wrong. :grin3
You know, hearing everybody else be so sure that it's never called a goal--hoop as preferred--makes me think you should call it a goal. Because I've definitely heard that, a lot. Did my sentence sound okay to you? The fact that it sounded wacky to Connecticut Jenna kind of reinforces that.
"Hoop" would make it more universal/standard, but that's not the point of this book.
Could you ask folks at your church what they use? And maybe give a sentence, because there may be subtle differences in when the terms are used. (I would say "I made a basket" but not "I made a hoop." "I ran into the goal" or "I ran into the basket" but not "I ran into the hoop." Hmm--I think of "hoop" as being synonymous with "rim.") David A. understands words, and also lives where people honor the bad kitty. Maybe he'd have a thought.
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I've also never heard it called 'goal.' My husband, dad, brother, and son all love basketball (and brother and son play[ed]), and the common terms are "he scored a basket," "he's under the basket," "he's driving to the hoop." And even though it's technically a field goal when they score outside the key, most people around here just call it a '3-pointer.'
But we're in CO...though I've rarely heard it called 'goal' while being forced to watch pro bball (ad nauseum) on TV. As in, "he's standing near the goal."
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I really appreciate the feedback! You ladies are wonderful.
Just for clarification, I'm asking what you would call the thing out in your yard or beside your driveway--the thing that includes the pole, the backboard, the rim and the net.
I finally got in touch with my nephew who was the UK Wildcat when he was in college. He said (without hesitation) in KY it's called a basketball goal.
I asked my son, who's lived all his 35 years in KY and went to UK. He said he's heard both. If it's a rim and net that's nailed to the side of a barn, then it's more likely to be called a hoop. If it's the whole thing, then it's more likely to be called a goal.
Marcia, thanks for checking with your son. (Great resource!)
And Katie, thanks for asking your dad. (I can see where you got your great sense of humor. Assuming you weren't misquoting him. :naughty ) Yes, your sentence--"Ev, you run down to the far goal and I'll inbound the ball."--sounded fine to me. Thank you for your other good suggestions of folks to ask.
As for the action during a game, yes, Robin, we'd be likely to say things like "he scored a basket," "he's under the basket," "it's a 3-pointer," and even "he's driving to the hoop." Not "he scored a goal." But the thing out in your backyard is usually a basketball goal if you're in KY. (At least, that's seeming to be the consensus and not just my own personal way of saying things.)
Thank you to those of you who made the distinction between regionally correct vs. universal. I think I need to ask my editor which she's wanting (when she gets back from her honeymoon!).
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Great story about your nephew.
We've heard the kids talking and playing and it's always hoop or basket, referring to the thing itself and for scoring, points or basket. The only time I've heard the word goal is in reference to other sports -- soccer, lacrosse, hockey.
Vijaya
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Ev, I was not misquoting my father. He's perfectly capable of insulting Kentucky basketball on his own. :kiss
I finally got in touch with my nephew who was the UK Wildcat when he was in college. He said (without hesitation) in KY it's called a basketball goal.
So Indiana and Kentucky basketball have something in common. I will not sleep well tonight. :shocked
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:lol Katie.
Ev, I think it's very interesting to hear these regional differences! It was probably in a KY college game that I heard the term 'goal' too. ;)
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Ev, I was not misquoting my father. He's perfectly capable of insulting Kentucky basketball on his own. :kiss
:lol4 Katie, I adore you.
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Katie, I have no words in response. You and your dad are clearly two of a kind. :lol5
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Seems like this would be kind of a cool thing to include in your book. Different parts of the country use different terms, but in Kentucky we say Goal!
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Ev, my dad contacted his good friend Bob Hammel. Bob is Indiana's authority on this. I realize that's the wrong side of the river for you, but it's darned close, and there's nobody whose opinion I'd value higher. Bob was the sports editor for the Bloomington newspaper, is a member of the Indiana Basketball Hall of Fame, was chosen top sportswriter in Indiana fifteen times, and won the Curt Gowdy Award, the highest honor given to basketball writers (from the Hall of Fame).
In addition, Bob Knight once threw a chair at him and my dad. :eek5
Bob Hammel says "goal" is preferable. He thinks "hoops" is the kind of thing people who live on the coasts think people in the Midwest say, the same way they say "Heartland," when nobody who lives there does.
And he points out that the violation is "goal-tending" not "hoop-tending." He suggests your editor look that up in the rule book.
I think that's a mic drop for Bob. Ev 1, editor 0. :hi5
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Here in New England the thing in the driveway is definitely a hoop. Goal makes me think of hockey.
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I have never ever heard it referred to as a goal. I've lived in SD, MN, IA, WI, and FL.
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I've never heard anyone call it a goal (in Ontario). Online and in stores they're generally called basketball systems or portable hoops (check out Walmart, Amazon, or Dick's Sporting Goods), but my friends would usually say 'backboard' (which I know is only part of it)
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I think the simplest thing to do, Ev, would be to write that she has a soccer goal in her driveway...
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Hoop. Or even basket.
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I'm with those who say basket.
If I was pressed for a different word, I'd struggle.
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Here in Poughkeepsie, NY, we'd say basketball hoop...haven't really heard it referred to as goal.
http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=13292274&camp=CSE:GooglePLA:13292274:13569839:BASKETBALL&CAGPSPN=pla&CAWELAID=120138600000279194&catargetid=120138600002991234&cadevice=c
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Thanks bunches, everybody! :grouphug2
:lol4 Anne! But if you think that, you clearly don't know KY as well as Katie does.
Laurel, I agree it would be cool to include in the book, but unfortunately, I've already exceeded my word limit and Ms. Editor would not be happy. :uhuh
Wow, Katie! That's an impressive set of credentials your dad's friend has. Please tell your dad I appreciate his checking with Bob (even if your dad does live on the wrong side of the river and feels free to insult those of us on the right side :taunt ). Definitely a mic drop. (And I just learned tonight what that means. :applause ).
In addition, Bob Knight once threw a chair at him and my dad.
This sounds like another of your awesome stories begging to be told. :yup
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...if universality is the objective, he'd recommend hoop. But if authenticity to a region is more important, go ahead with goal.
Ditto. (I asked DH and a neighbor, who are basketball knowledgeable.)
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In addition, Bob Knight once threw a chair at him and my dad. :eek5
Bob only threw one chair, right? Or not?
He thinks "hoops" is the kind of thing people who live on the coasts think people in the Midwest say
But here, he's wrong. The Midwest *does* say hoops.
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Bob only threw one chair, right?
He threw a chair on more than one occasion. There was a famous incident during a game, but he threw a chair at least a couple of other times. One of them sent Dad and Bob scrambling.
But here, he's wrong. The Midwest *does* say hoops
But not Kentucky (or Southern Indiana). :slap
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I'm enjoying this thread immensely with all the chair throwing stories ... in the heartland.
:popcorngirl
Vijaya
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But not Kentucky (or Southern Indiana). :slap
But Midwestern states are: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin.
Not Kentucky. US Census Bureau says KY is a Southern state. And Southern Indiana, geographically speaking, is much closer to KY than to the rest of the MW. Youse rivalz for a reason. :snork :slap
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This thread is beginning to cross the "no religion or politics" line...
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...by flirting with their cousin, Geography, no?
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This thread is beginning to cross the "no religion or politics" line...
Anne, we're talking about basketball. It's a whole lot more serious than religion or politics.
... in the heartland.
:gaah
Hmmph. Everybody: :slap :slap :slap :nanana :slap :slap :slap
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Bob Hammel! I've actually seen his byline! BOB HAMMEL WINS!
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Bob Hammel! I've actually seen his byline! BOB HAMMEL WINS!
:hi5 Yes! Thank you, Mike. :hi5
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Circle the wagons, folks. Back to the challenge at hand...
I copied this from a different forum dealing with the same issue:
"from the NBA rule book
RULE NO. 11
BASKET INTERFERENCE—
GOALTENDING
Section I—A Player Shall Not:
a. Touch the ball or the basket ring
when the ball is using the basket ring as
its lower base or hang on the rim while
the ball is passing through.
EXCEPTION: If a player near his own....
lol "basket ring"
Im calling it that from now on"
:soccer
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When I hear "goal", my first thought is hockey... (another New Englander, so...)
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But, Marissa, that's because hockey is important in New England. A goal, by it's very root meaning, is about your ambitions and what's important to you. Guess which sport Kentuckians think of first when they hear 'goal.'
Anne, we're talking about basketball. It's a whole lot more serious than religion or politics.
:exactly
Hey! We agree on something, Katie. :hi5
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Yes, that's kind of what I meant, Ev--I thought you were asking what different people thought of when they heard the word. I guess I misunderstood.
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Okay I read through most of these and maybe I missed something, but the terminology I am most familiar with is 'points' for basketball scores. I have never heard 'goal' used at all. And, points are made by shooting a ball through the basket or hoop or net. In Oregon we would say, "She has a basketball hoop in her driveway" if it is free standing. If attached to the garage, someone might say a 'backboard and hoop'. Never 'goal'. We "shoot hoops" not "goals".
Go, Blazers.
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We live in PA. My boys played basketball all the time in the driveway and in organized sports. They/we would have said:
"The basketball net in the driveway."
"Do they have a basketball net?"
"I'm shooting hoops."
"I made a shot."
"How many shots did you make?"
"How many points did you have?"
If I had used the word "goal" to describe what they were doing, they would have laughed at me because, you know, what does a Mom know? For them, goal was for soccer.
Ree
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I'm in NYC metro. Goals are things you can score goals through. Hockey, soccer, field hockey, lacrosse (I think) have goals. Football has goal posts, but not goals because nothing stops the ball in the back and you don't score a goal, you score a field goal.
Basketball hoops contain nets. Hoops are hung on backboards. If someone draws lines on their driveway, it's a court or half court. If they just have the hoop, we'd say that. We might also say net because some folks have a hoop with no net, but if there's a net there must be a hoop.
If you say goal to me, you're in the wrong sport. I mean, a lot of readers would be confused by that in a picture book. If you're writing a character from KY for an audience from KY, go for the goal.
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Just in case you're interested. I realized yesterday that I'd never followed up to let all of you, who were so helpful in sharing feedback on this question, know how the issue played out in my book. Basically, I let my editor know the difference in word usage and pretty much said what Marcia's son advised.
My son says if universality is the objective, he'd recommend hoop. But if authenticity to a region is more important, go ahead with goal.
I told my editor I was happy to leave the choice up to her.
She replied that she loves these kinds of variations in regional word use, and wanted to include both in the book. (I didn't remind her that we were already over the word count for that particular page. :grin3 ) So this is how the sentence ended up in my Twelve Days of Christmas in Kentucky book. Martin, an out-of-state cousin visiting KY, is writing home to his parents...
"Marybeth has a basketball goal (they call it a goal, not a hoop here in KY!) in her driveway, so to get warmed up for the big game we shot some baskets."
Thanks again for all your helpful feedback! :thankyou
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Ev, it was great seeing that in the book. I remembered our discussion here right away.
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I caught that in the book also and remembered the discussion!
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Ev, thanks for telling us how that worked out! I'm going to share this with Keith. :)
ETA:
Keith texts, "Oh, wow! Haha. Awesome! I can add literary consultant to my resume now!"
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Keith texts, "Oh, wow! Haha. Awesome! I can add literary consultant to my resume now!"
:applause
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Thanks for the update, Ev! :smellflowers
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Fun to see how it all worked out. I must be the only one who didn't immediately remember this discussion when I read the line (but now I do). It's a great example of how to smoothly explain word differences for all readers. Thanks for letting us know!
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Very cool! Happy sales to you.
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Looking back at this thread I realize what a hard time I gave Ev. I regret nothing. :ha
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I regret nothing also, Katie. :grin3 I'll get my revenge another time. :muahaha
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:hiding
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I got an email that this thread had been unlocked and decided to come back and re-read it. It was so much fun and gave me lots of laughs, bringing back such great memories.
I'm so thankful for this wonderful Blueboard where we can laugh and learn and share together!
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:hearts
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I thought the whole contraption was a goal (hoop, backboard, and net) and the hoop was the actual metal circle part.
I've been in the Kansas City area since first grade, but was never much into sports. So I could be wrong.