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Writer's Room => Research => Topic started by: Ev on September 17, 2015, 08:45 PM

Title: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Ev on September 17, 2015, 08:45 PM
In my picture book about KY, I had a sentence that said, "Beth has a basketball goal in her driveway."

My NY editor changed 'goal' to 'hoop.' I was fine with that, until I saw someone from New England use 'hoop.' I would never say 'hoop' myself, and so I started wondering if it's a regional difference.

Please tell me which you use and where you're from. If it's a KY thing (and not just me), or even a Southern thing, then I think I'll ask my editor to have us switch it back to 'goal.'

Thank you for any feedback you can give me.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: dewsanddamps on September 17, 2015, 10:07 PM
Ev, to me a hoop is a basket--a physical object. A goal is a two or three point score--an intangible thing.

I can understand why a Univ. of Kentucky fan doesn't have much experience with goals.  :grin3


ETA: Okay, I really enjoyed typing that, but on further reflection, I think I call it a "goal," too. (I would say, "Ev, you run down to the far goal and I'll inbound the ball." Does that sound right to you? It does to me.)

I ran a quick search and came up with this. Don't know if it's accurate, but it says that a cheap set is a hoop, and an expensive set is a goal. Course, they're trying to sell them to you. http://www.firstteaminc.com/basketball-goal-vs-basketball-hoop.php

My Dad grew up in Southern Indiana, so his vocab is geographically very near yours. He also has some ins in the Indiana basketball community. (They live in Bloomington.) May I ask him what he thinks? I don't want to violate any Board privacy.

Say--a quick call to the UK athletic director might do the trick, too. You've got the media credentials to ask, and if the UK AD or bball coach agrees with you, that's good enough for anybody.

But my crack about goals still stands.  :grin3
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: JennaWren on September 18, 2015, 04:36 AM
In my world (I'm in MA, grew up in CT, but "my world" is living with super sporty 12yo and hubsy) basketball has a hoop. I'm trying to think of a context where I'd use goal, but can't! Like, I'd say, hey you scored 8 points! But wouldn't say, hey, you scored 4 goals! Things like..."drive to the hoop," etc. When I hear "goal" it's associated with football or soccer.

Katie's example didn't sound right to me. Sorry, Katie!  :flowers2

But, that is in my world. I'm no expert!
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: JodyJS on September 18, 2015, 05:18 AM
Ev,

In my world (Missouri, with a 15 y-o boy who plays basketball), goal is the physical object through which one would "shoot hoops."

Jody

Dews,  :dr
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Vijaya on September 18, 2015, 05:58 AM
We say hoop here in the Carolinas but also in WA.

Dewsy is bad. :lol4

Vijaya
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Mike Jung on September 18, 2015, 06:12 AM
I've never lived in the South, but it's hoop everywhere in the States that I have lived (CA, NJ, WA, and PA).
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Ev on September 18, 2015, 06:47 AM
 :lol5 Katie, you're so much fun!

Yes, I had already looked at that site before I posted here. It's clear that they themselves (they're located in KS) prefer 'goal'--"A complete basketball system consists of the same general parts, whether it is an in ground basketball goal, a portable basketball goal, or an adjustable portable goal."

I had also read a discussion online where people were disagreeing about what the thing should be called, but nobody said where they lived, so it wasn't helping me.

By all means, please ask your dad what he thinks.  I have a nephew who was the Wildcat mascot for UK when he was in college, and I've been trying to call and ask him the question, but haven't gotten through to him yet. (Just a funny side note, when his son was about two and a half and I was babysitting him, we were using a set of different colored geometric blocks to fill in puzzle outlines. He, quite seriously, assured me that he couldn't use any of the orange blocks, because orange was Tennessee's color. Yep, we here in KY take our basketball very seriously.  :grin3 )

I appreciate all of you who have chimed in with your responses. It's interesting and helpful to hear the differences.

Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: JennaWren on September 18, 2015, 07:03 AM
(Just a funny side note, when his son was about two and a half and I was babysitting him, we were using a set of different colored geometric blocks to fill in puzzle outlines. He, quite seriously, assured me that he couldn't use any of the orange blocks, because orange was Tennessee's color. Yep, we here in KY take our basketball very seriously.  :grin3 )


 :lol4  What a great story!!!
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: mrh on September 18, 2015, 08:46 AM
You have a lot of great resources here, Ev. Just to put my .02 in, my guys are college bb fanatics and  have traveled throughout the Big Ten. I have never heard "goal" used in this way. AFAIK, it's a hoop. Let me text my son and ask what he thinks. He's a NBA D-League broadcaster.

Eta: My son says if universality is the objective, he'd recommend hoop. But if authenticity to a region is more important, go ahead with goal.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Pons on September 18, 2015, 09:08 AM
Hoop. Definitely hoop. California.

People also refer to the basket as in He's under the basket. Never goal.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: dewsanddamps on September 18, 2015, 09:37 AM
Ev, that's a wonderful story about your great nephew!  :applause

My dad--who grew up just over the river, but on the correct side of it--says they usually called it a basket, but hoop or goal were also used. He did say he's certain that whatever it's called in Kentucky is wrong.  :grin3

You know, hearing everybody else be so sure that it's never called a goal--hoop as preferred--makes me think you should call it a goal. Because I've definitely heard that, a lot. Did my sentence sound okay to you? The fact that it sounded wacky to Connecticut Jenna kind of reinforces that.

"Hoop" would make it more universal/standard, but that's not the point of this book.

Could you ask folks at your church what they use? And maybe give a sentence, because there may be subtle differences in when the terms are used. (I would say "I made a basket" but not "I made a hoop." "I ran into the goal" or "I ran into the basket" but not "I ran into the hoop." Hmm--I think of "hoop" as being synonymous with "rim.") David A. understands words, and also lives where people honor the bad kitty. Maybe he'd have a thought.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: andracill on September 18, 2015, 09:59 AM
I've also never heard it called 'goal.' My husband, dad, brother, and son all love basketball (and brother and son play[ed]), and the common terms are "he scored a basket," "he's under the basket," "he's driving to the hoop." And even though it's technically a field goal when they score outside the key, most people around here just call it a '3-pointer.'

But we're in CO...though I've rarely heard it called 'goal' while being forced to watch pro bball (ad nauseum) on TV. As in, "he's standing near the goal."
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Ev on September 18, 2015, 11:55 AM
I really appreciate the feedback! You ladies are wonderful.

Just for clarification, I'm asking what you would call the thing out in your yard or beside your driveway--the thing that includes the pole, the backboard, the rim and the net.

I finally got in touch with my nephew who was the UK Wildcat when he was in college. He said (without hesitation) in KY it's called a basketball goal.

I asked my son, who's lived all his 35 years in KY and went to UK. He said he's heard both. If it's a rim and net that's nailed to the side of a barn, then it's more likely to be called a hoop. If it's the whole thing, then it's more likely to be called a goal.

Marcia, thanks for checking with your son. (Great resource!)

And Katie, thanks for asking your dad. (I can see where you got your great sense of humor. Assuming you weren't misquoting him. :naughty ) Yes, your sentence--"Ev, you run down to the far goal and I'll inbound the ball."--sounded fine to me. Thank you for your other good suggestions of folks to ask.

As for the action during a game, yes, Robin, we'd be likely to say things like "he scored a basket," "he's under the basket," "it's a 3-pointer," and even "he's driving to the hoop." Not "he scored a goal." But the thing out in your backyard is usually a basketball goal if you're in KY. (At least, that's seeming to be the consensus and not just my own personal way of saying things.)

Thank you to those of you who made the distinction between regionally correct vs. universal. I think I need to ask my editor which she's wanting (when she gets back from her honeymoon!).
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Vijaya on September 18, 2015, 11:56 AM
Great story about your nephew.

We've heard the kids talking and playing and it's always hoop or basket, referring to the thing itself and for scoring, points or basket. The only time I've heard the word goal is in reference to other sports -- soccer, lacrosse, hockey.

Vijaya
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: dewsanddamps on September 18, 2015, 12:04 PM
Ev, I was not misquoting my father. He's perfectly capable of insulting Kentucky basketball on his own.  :kiss

I finally got in touch with my nephew who was the UK Wildcat when he was in college. He said (without hesitation) in KY it's called a basketball goal.

So Indiana and Kentucky basketball have something in common. I will not sleep well tonight.  :shocked
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: andracill on September 18, 2015, 01:16 PM
:lol Katie.

Ev, I think it's very interesting to hear these regional differences! It was probably in a KY college game that I heard the term 'goal' too. ;)
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: JennaWren on September 18, 2015, 01:39 PM
Ev, I was not misquoting my father. He's perfectly capable of insulting Kentucky basketball on his own.  :kiss

 :lol4  Katie, I adore you.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Ev on September 18, 2015, 02:01 PM
Katie, I have no words in response. You and your dad are clearly two of a kind.  :lol5

Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Pons on September 18, 2015, 02:25 PM
Seems like this would be kind of a cool thing to include in your book. Different parts of the country use different terms, but in Kentucky we say Goal!
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: dewsanddamps on September 18, 2015, 04:02 PM
Ev, my dad contacted his good friend Bob Hammel. Bob is Indiana's authority on this. I realize that's the wrong side of the river for you, but it's darned close, and there's nobody whose opinion I'd value higher. Bob was the sports editor for the Bloomington newspaper, is a member of the Indiana Basketball Hall of Fame, was chosen top sportswriter in Indiana fifteen times, and won the Curt Gowdy Award, the highest honor given to basketball writers (from the Hall of Fame).

In addition, Bob Knight once threw a chair at him and my dad.  :eek5

Bob Hammel says "goal" is preferable. He thinks "hoops" is the kind of thing people who live on the coasts think people in the Midwest say, the same way they say "Heartland," when nobody who lives there does.

And he points out that the violation is "goal-tending" not "hoop-tending." He suggests your editor look that up in the rule book.

I think that's a mic drop for Bob.  Ev 1, editor 0.  :hi5
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Marcia on September 18, 2015, 04:08 PM
Here in New England the thing in the driveway is definitely a hoop. Goal makes me think of hockey.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Larissa on September 18, 2015, 04:19 PM
I have never ever heard it referred to as a goal. I've lived in SD, MN, IA, WI, and FL.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: David Wright on September 18, 2015, 04:32 PM
I've never heard anyone call it a goal (in Ontario). Online and in stores they're generally called basketball systems or portable hoops (check out Walmart, Amazon, or Dick's Sporting Goods), but my friends would usually say 'backboard' (which I know is only part of it)
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: AnneB on September 18, 2015, 04:53 PM
I think the simplest thing to do, Ev, would be to write that she has a soccer goal in her driveway...
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: AnnH on September 18, 2015, 05:19 PM
Hoop. Or even basket.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Anne Marie on September 18, 2015, 06:11 PM
I'm with those who say basket.

If I was pressed for a different word, I'd struggle. 
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: DellaRF on September 18, 2015, 06:42 PM
Here in Poughkeepsie, NY, we'd say basketball hoop...haven't really heard it referred to as goal.

http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=13292274&camp=CSE:GooglePLA:13292274:13569839:BASKETBALL&CAGPSPN=pla&CAWELAID=120138600000279194&catargetid=120138600002991234&cadevice=c
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Ev on September 18, 2015, 08:05 PM
Thanks bunches, everybody!  :grouphug2

 :lol4 Anne! But if you think that, you clearly don't know KY as well as Katie does.

Laurel, I agree it would be cool to include in the book, but unfortunately, I've already exceeded my word limit and Ms. Editor would not be happy.  :uhuh

Wow, Katie! That's an impressive set of credentials your dad's friend has. Please tell your dad I appreciate his checking with Bob (even if your dad does live on the wrong side of the river and feels free to insult those of us on the right side  :taunt ). Definitely a mic drop. (And I just learned tonight what that means. :applause ).

In addition, Bob Knight once threw a chair at him and my dad.
This sounds like another of your awesome stories begging to be told.  :yup
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: 217mom on September 18, 2015, 08:33 PM
...if universality is the objective, he'd recommend hoop. But if authenticity to a region is more important, go ahead with goal.
Ditto. (I asked DH and a neighbor, who are basketball knowledgeable.)
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: mrh on September 18, 2015, 08:46 PM
In addition, Bob Knight once threw a chair at him and my dad.  :eek5

Bob only threw one chair, right? Or not?

He thinks "hoops" is the kind of thing people who live on the coasts think people in the Midwest say

But here, he's wrong. The Midwest *does* say hoops.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: dewsanddamps on September 18, 2015, 09:03 PM
Bob only threw one chair, right?

He threw a chair on more than one occasion. There was a famous incident during a game, but he threw a chair at least a couple of other times. One of them sent Dad and Bob scrambling.

But here, he's wrong. The Midwest *does* say hoops

But not Kentucky (or Southern Indiana).  :slap
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Vijaya on September 19, 2015, 06:02 AM
I'm enjoying this thread immensely with all the chair throwing stories ... in the heartland.

:popcorngirl

Vijaya
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: mrh on September 19, 2015, 07:14 AM
But not Kentucky (or Southern Indiana).  :slap

But Midwestern states are: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin.

Not Kentucky. US Census Bureau says KY is a Southern state. And Southern Indiana, geographically speaking, is much closer to KY than to the rest of the MW. Youse rivalz for a reason. :snork :slap
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: AnneB on September 19, 2015, 07:28 AM
This thread is beginning to cross the "no religion or politics" line...
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: mrh on September 19, 2015, 07:32 AM
...by flirting with their cousin, Geography, no?
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: dewsanddamps on September 19, 2015, 08:03 AM
This thread is beginning to cross the "no religion or politics" line...

Anne, we're talking about basketball. It's a whole lot more serious than religion or politics.

... in the heartland.

 :gaah

Hmmph. Everybody:  :slap :slap :slap :nanana :slap :slap :slap
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Mike Jung on September 19, 2015, 08:57 AM
Bob Hammel! I've actually seen his byline! BOB HAMMEL WINS!
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: dewsanddamps on September 19, 2015, 10:05 AM
Bob Hammel! I've actually seen his byline! BOB HAMMEL WINS!

 :hi5 Yes! Thank you, Mike.  :hi5
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: 217mom on September 19, 2015, 10:24 AM
Circle the wagons, folks. Back to the challenge at hand...

I copied this from a different forum dealing with the same issue:

"from the NBA rule book

RULE NO. 11
BASKET INTERFERENCE—
GOALTENDING
Section I—A Player Shall Not:
a. Touch the ball or the basket ring
when the ball is using the basket ring as
its lower base or hang on the rim while
the ball is passing through.
EXCEPTION: If a player near his own....

lol "basket ring"

Im calling it that from now on"

 :soccer
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Marissa Doyle on September 19, 2015, 10:47 AM
When I hear "goal", my first thought is hockey... (another New Englander, so...)
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Ev on September 19, 2015, 01:29 PM
But, Marissa, that's because hockey is important in New England. A goal, by it's very root meaning, is about your ambitions and what's important to you. Guess which sport Kentuckians think of first when they hear 'goal.'

Anne, we're talking about basketball. It's a whole lot more serious than religion or politics.

 :exactly


Hey! We agree on something, Katie. :hi5

Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Marissa Doyle on September 19, 2015, 01:35 PM
Yes, that's kind of what I meant, Ev--I thought you were asking what different people thought of when they heard the word. I guess I misunderstood.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Stephanie Shaw on September 19, 2015, 05:07 PM
Okay I read through most of these and maybe I missed something, but the terminology I am most familiar with is 'points' for basketball scores. I have never heard 'goal' used at all.  And, points are made by shooting a ball through the basket or hoop or net. In Oregon we would say, "She has a basketball hoop in her driveway" if it is free standing. If attached to the garage, someone might say a 'backboard and hoop'.  Never 'goal'.  We "shoot hoops" not "goals".

Go, Blazers.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Ree on September 19, 2015, 10:44 PM
We live in PA. My boys played basketball all the time in the driveway and in organized sports. They/we would have said:

"The basketball net in the driveway."
"Do they have a basketball net?"
"I'm shooting hoops."
"I made a shot."
"How many shots did you make?"
"How many points did you have?"

If I had used the word "goal" to describe what they were doing, they would have laughed at me because, you know, what does a Mom know? For them, goal was for soccer.

Ree
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Debbie Vilardi on October 05, 2015, 02:59 PM
I'm in NYC metro. Goals are things you can score goals through. Hockey, soccer, field hockey, lacrosse (I think) have goals. Football has goal posts, but not goals because nothing stops the ball in the back and you don't score a goal, you score a field goal.

Basketball hoops contain nets. Hoops are hung on backboards. If someone draws lines on their driveway, it's a court or half court. If they just have the hoop, we'd say that. We might also say net because some folks have a hoop with no net, but if there's a net there must be a hoop.

If you say goal to me, you're in the wrong sport. I mean, a lot of readers would be confused by that in a picture book. If you're writing a character from KY for an audience from KY, go for the goal.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Ev on January 02, 2017, 08:37 AM
Just in case you're interested. I realized yesterday that I'd never followed up to let all of you, who were so helpful in sharing feedback on this question, know how the issue played out in my book. Basically, I let my editor know the difference in word usage and pretty much said what Marcia's son advised.

My son says if universality is the objective, he'd recommend hoop. But if authenticity to a region is more important, go ahead with goal.

I told my editor I was happy to leave the choice up to her.

She replied that she loves these kinds of variations in regional word use, and wanted to include both in the book. (I didn't remind her that we were already over the word count for that particular page. :grin3 ) So this is how the sentence ended up in my Twelve Days of Christmas in Kentucky book. Martin, an out-of-state cousin visiting KY, is writing home to his parents...

"Marybeth has a basketball goal (they call it a goal, not a hoop here in KY!) in her driveway, so to get warmed up for the big game we shot some baskets."

Thanks again for all your helpful feedback!  :thankyou

Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Vijaya on January 02, 2017, 10:21 AM
Ev, it was great seeing that in the book. I remembered our discussion here right away.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: AnneB on January 02, 2017, 10:29 AM
I caught that in the book also and remembered the discussion!
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: mrh on January 02, 2017, 11:19 AM
Ev, thanks for telling us how that worked out! I'm going to share this with Keith. :)

ETA:

Keith texts, "Oh, wow! Haha. Awesome! I can add literary consultant to my resume now!"
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Ev on January 02, 2017, 11:37 AM
Keith texts, "Oh, wow! Haha. Awesome! I can add literary consultant to my resume now!"

 :applause

Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: dewsanddamps on January 02, 2017, 05:39 PM
Thanks for the update, Ev! :smellflowers
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Marcia on January 05, 2017, 11:23 AM
Fun to see how it all worked out. I must be the only one who didn't immediately remember this discussion when I read the line (but now I do). It's a great example of how to smoothly explain word differences for all readers. Thanks for letting us know!
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Debbie Vilardi on January 09, 2017, 07:43 AM
Very cool! Happy sales to you.
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: dewsanddamps on January 09, 2017, 09:22 AM
Looking back at this thread I realize what a hard time I gave Ev. I regret nothing.  :ha
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Ev on January 09, 2017, 09:34 AM
I regret nothing also, Katie. :grin3 I'll get my revenge another time. :muahaha
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: dewsanddamps on January 10, 2017, 11:02 AM
 :hiding
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Ev on September 17, 2020, 06:04 PM
I got an email that this thread had been unlocked and decided to come back and re-read it. It was so much fun and gave me lots of laughs, bringing back such great memories.

I'm so thankful for this wonderful Blueboard where we can laugh and learn and share together!
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: Vijaya on September 17, 2020, 06:22 PM
:hearts
Title: Re: Basketball goal vs basketball hoop
Post by: karen-b-jones on September 19, 2020, 02:18 PM
I thought the whole contraption was a goal (hoop, backboard, and net) and the hoop was the actual metal circle part. 

I've been in the Kansas City area since first grade, but was never much into sports.  So I could be wrong.