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Black protagonist and racism in fantasy?

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mswatkins

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I would doubt, seriously doubt, that people who believe blacks are "second stringers" read much fantasy, specifically MG/YA fantasy, or read much of anything for that matter.  So no, I don't think racism plays a real part in this at all.

Like I said before, I believe it's traditionalism instead of racism.  Fantasy is very popular right now, and a story filled with African mythology could be very interesting.  But it's like all other storytelling, it comes down to the story itself and the writers ability to tell it. 

#31 - February 02, 2009, 06:28 AM
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 06:52 AM by msw »

mswatkins

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As it relates to books, typically only minorities purchase books with minority main characters.  This is because people  of the major race have no need to identify with minority characters (whether attributed to racism or just a lack of interest).  If a minority wants to read, we have to read what is out there.  There is very little choice for us.  If a majority wants to read, the sky is the limit.  The same things goes for black movies.  Very rarely do you see throngs of white people in the movies trying to watch a Tyler Perry flick, but hordes of black people come out to see any number of movies without a single black character in it.  And because of this, black books/movies simply do not make as much money (as compared to our white counterparts).  Because it doesn't make as much money, the publishers don't publish as often.  Because they don't publish as often, black protagonists are underrepresented.

This is a solid point.  Several years ago a black actor (I wish I could remember who) said that there is a difference between black movies and movies with black actors.  Up to that point I had never thought of it that way, and the he made a great point. One that was very true and has stuck with me.
#32 - February 02, 2009, 06:51 AM
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 07:28 AM by msw »

msw - I don't think your question is offensive - but I do think that it is a type of stereotyping and generalization that we would like to avoid. Individuals have such varied tastes and race is an added dimension to their makeup - but you must think of each person as an individual.

However, you raise a very good point of how most of publishing and Hollywood works. They want to make money so they look for these types of generalized statistics to help market their books and films. Only women buy fiction. Only men watch action and horror films, etc. And because publishing and Hollywood is still mostly white, the generalizations don't change alot - but they have been changing to meet the marketplace and that is what we all must focus on. They are slow to change but it can happen. Look at the explosion of Latino culture - a direct relation to the recognization of the the Hispanic American sector as a major consumer.

And while it pains me to hear of minority characters being changed to white in a film (always happens to Asians for some reason) I understand that usually it is a market and money issue that they are working off of - not racisim. That said, I wish they would take a chance on a minority lead for a major blockbuster. But that time may not yet be here.

However, in Shawshank Redemption, Morgan Freeman's character in the book was actually an Irish man. That's why his name was Red. In the book he had red hair. In the movie he is asked why his name is Red and he says I don't know, maybe cause I'm Irish. That cracked me up!
#33 - February 02, 2009, 07:02 AM
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mswatkins

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ello - I removed the question, even though you agreed it was not offensive.  I in no way want to upset anyone on this site.  You have all been so helpful to me while I've been a member.

As for Shawshank Redemption - I love that line, I laughed when I read it because I remember the scene so well. I have not read the book, I just thought it was dry humor at its best. 
#34 - February 02, 2009, 07:26 AM

inspired007

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However, in Shawshank Redemption, Morgan Freeman's character in the book was actually an Irish man. That's why his name was Red. In the book he had red hair. In the movie he is asked why his name is Red and he says I don't know, maybe cause I'm Irish. That cracked me up!

I never thought much of the Red nickname because a lot of black people are nicknamed Red based on their complexion.  For some reason, a lot of lighter skinned black people get the nickname Red.  I think it's from either their skin or hair color.  Morgan Freeman isn't what I would consider light-skinned, but that's the reason I didn't think much of it.
#35 - February 02, 2009, 07:34 AM

Hmm ... I thought Dev Patel from Slumdog was playing Prince Zuko ? I would be seriously upset if M Night Shyamalan picked an all white cast!!! It's an ASIAN fantasy.
It looks like Jesse McCartney was offered the role of Zuko, and until two days ago, it was still thought he would take it, but a schedule conflict came up, so it was offered to Dev Patel. If the other cast members listed on IMDB are correct, Aang, Katara, and Sokka will be played by white actors.

I disagree that it's a bad thing to write a black character as part of a "pro black movement".  I think there is nothing wrong with deliberately writing your character as black in order to increase cultural awareness and to bridge the gap in literature.
I agree.

I would doubt, seriously doubt, that people who believe blacks are "second stringers" read much fantasy, specifically MG/YA fantasy, or read much of anything for that matter.  So no, I don't think racism plays a real part in this at all.

Like I said before, I believe it's traditionalism instead of racism.
I disagree with this. All kinds of people read fantasy, and all kinds of people read.

I've listened in on similar discussions relating to writing science fiction/fantasy for adults. There were some who felt, very strongly, that unless there was a reason for a character to be black (or anything other than white), there was no point in doing it at all. The same argument was used to discuss female characters. Everything defaulted to white male unless there was a reason not to, and they actively discouraged other writers from doing otherwise unless the plot specifically called for something else.

I'm not saying it's racism for a book to have an all-white cast. But I don't like arguments that end up dismissing the lack of other races and cultures. I think it's important to recognize when there is a lack of characters the children feel they can connect with. It's got to be frustrating to never read about someone who looks like you being the hero and doing cool magic and saving the world.
#36 - February 02, 2009, 07:36 AM
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inspired007

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Just an FYI, my mc is a black girl (with brown skin) and is about to inherit special powers from an African Tribe she is a descendent of.  I've always wanted to see a black mc superhero.  The only one I know of in the movies was Storm (X-men) who was actually African in the comic book.
#37 - February 02, 2009, 07:43 AM

msw - you didn't have to remove the question, it was fine! But I do appreciate your sensitivity to the issue!

inspired - I think most people wouldn't catch that unless they read the book - I mean novella - and realized it was tongue in cheek because the original character was written as an Irish man.

And Rachel - Don't remind me of the devastation I suffered at hearing how the whole Avatar Asian world was being cast with white actors. I don't think there was a scheduling conflict for McCartney - I think the producers realized that they might actually have a colossal failure on their hands if they didn't recast their darkest and most complex character. It is so incredibly sad that a show that celebrated Asian and Inuit cultures has been completely recast into a white mold. It was bad enough they did it to the Earthsea movie but now to Avatar? Katara and Sokka are supposed to be inuit - what they couldn't find Native American actors? The kid who is playing Sokka was apparently quoted as saying "I guess I'd better get a tan!"  :hairpull

Ok I'll stop now.
#38 - February 02, 2009, 07:45 AM
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inspired - I think most people wouldn't catch that unless they read the book - I mean novella - and realized it was tongue in cheek because the original character was written as an Irish man.



Oh yeah, absolutely. 
#39 - February 02, 2009, 07:47 AM

And Rachel - Don't remind me of the devastation I suffered at hearing how the whole Avatar Asian world was being cast with white actors. I don't think there was a scheduling conflict for McCartney - I think the producers realized that they might actually have a colossal failure on their hands if they didn't recast their darkest and most complex character.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case (especially since McCartney's been training for the role for a while, so it seemed fairly set in stone until just now). And I saw that quote, too, gah!
#40 - February 02, 2009, 07:58 AM
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Whoo, is it getting hot in here or what? You ladies are really heating things up! There is so much I want to say, so much people I want to quote. Inspired really put everything in perspective--as I undoubtedly knew she would. (Love you Dr. Murphy!) And there is no doubt in my mind that rbt, whoever he/she is, has an agenda regarding this issue, contrary to what he/she has said. However, eluding to what rbt has said earlier, the Green Lantern is a popular superhero and he is a pivotal member of the Justice League, as far as I am concerned, and this is a huge debate amongst us comic nerds, he is one of the most powerful superheros of all time and everyone seems to like him, regardless of his skin color. Spawn is very popular as well and he was created by a white artist.
It's not that these characters are less commercially viable compared to a white character, it's simply a matter of content. Have you seen the Green Lantern or Spawn in any new material lately? The answer is no, you haven't. And does this mean that they are second string? This too is also an astounding no!

We artists (which includes all of us writers) shape our characters based upon the content: the scenery, the world, the environment, etc., I've said this before but we go where our heart guides us. If it is we see our MC as a big red dog, then that's what we will mold him into. If it is we see our MC as an Arabian knight with Caucasian roots, then that is what our hero will become.
I don't remember who said it, but this member was right when they wrote that most fans of Fantasy are white. I don't think that a writer in their right mind will write a story simply because of this factor, but I know that Hollywood--to make a profit--will.

As a young man I don't understand any of this. If you cut a black or white person the blood is red, its not green or yellow. If you hurt a black or white person they will cry all the same. Tell them a joke they will laugh, Give them inspiration and they will try and reach for the stars. The only anomaly that logically divides us is our individuality--nothing more, nothing less. Racism is a fabrication of the mind, it is a facade spurred on by our fear of that which we cannot, or refuse to understand.

We may try to address the issue in our fantasy writing, but I believe that this sort of topic is best left for educational books. Do not forget that children can care less what the character in their favorite MG novels look like--I talk to kids all the time and many of them just want the action. (Except the girls though, cause you chicks are wired, you want romance--oh please! There are soap operas for that. :dr) And I understand that parents sometimes do dictate what it is their children read, but like I said, if you base a story around this factor then you lose out on the spectrum of audience in which diversification brings. 

(Edited because of two grammatical errors.)
#41 - February 02, 2009, 08:02 AM
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 10:54 AM by Tyson D. Mc Donald »
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NDM

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If you think about it, most fantasy up to this point has been based in the medieval European tradition/Norse tradition a la Tolkien.  It's not so much that it was an intentional oversight, I think, but something that's based in the history of Europe.  It's an intuitive thing, almost. You see a lot of white characters in these stories because that's what most writers associate with castles, crusaders, the saxons, druid magic, and so on and so forth.   

Perhaps it's true that most published fantasy has been of the European tradition.  But this is not because the rest of the world does not produce wonderful fantasy.  Many other parts of the world have very, very rich histories of fantasy story-telling.  India, China, Japan, Parts of the Middle East, Africa, South America, as well as Native American story-telling traditions.  Many of these even pre-date the European traditions you've listed.  Could be that the reason so many European traditions have made it into print is because the keepers of the gates (publishers, editors, agents, marketing, publicity, etc.) tend to be predominantly European or of European descent and this is a tradition they identify with.

A topic like this is bound to be controversial, perhaps now you'll understand why it is seldom brought up--especially in novels and mainstream media.

This is an interesting topic.  And just because it may bring up tough issues and hit on sensitivities, does not mean it should not be discussed.  I love seeing the list of books I've never heard of (and furiously scrawling the names down for my TBR list).  I love seeing the differing opinions.  It's part of what I love about living somewhere where ideas and different views can be openly discussed without fear.

Still, regardless of the handful of books we can name here (and it really IS a handful), the point the OP made is a valid one.  There is a glaring dearth of diverse experiences, period.  But more and more people are becoming aware and more and more people want things to change, including (and it's a slow process) gate-keepers.  It's SLOW, I know, and many of us want it to happen way faster, but it is happening.
#42 - February 02, 2009, 08:14 AM
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 07:47 PM by Neesha »

mike

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Rachel beat me to it and already said a lot of things I was going to say... I admit I used to excuse myself from writing none-white characters by saying that since I never said they were white, they could be any race. But in my head they defaulted to white, and Rachel pointed out that off-hand descriptions I would use ended up describing their race anyway. Since then, I've always been explicit about skin tone or race, and I've found it enriches the characters in small ways, allows you to bring out nice details etc., even if race and skin tone are never a concern of the plot or conflict.

I also think it's not quite reasonable to say that the popular YA and MG books wouldn't have made it if they had non-white protagonists. Nobody really understands why some books just do well, and some turn into Harry Potter. There's just not enough books with non-white protagonists being written to say that they're not making it huge. Most books aren't making it huge. I'd like to think it's not impossible... these aren't YA/MG, but both American Gods and Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman feature non-white protagonists and were bestsellers, I believe. (At least I think American Gods does... I'm having trouble finding evidence now.) Which is just to say it's not impossible. A lot of people don't even notice if they're not looking for it, though really that just goes to show how ingrained the white-male-default-protagonist is in everyone's mind : (

 :moose

#43 - February 02, 2009, 08:19 AM

just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's
something that doesn't need to be considered or
addressed.

do we keep with a male president to the end
of our days because it's "tradition"? or a white one?
(i'm using this just as an example. but you see
what i mean?)

i *don't* think that minority writers need
to be "representers" of their culture / race.
i think it's a huge onus and i think writing is hard
enough as it is. BUT if it is something they feel
they want to do, or feels natural to them, then YES
do it.

i think that non-minority writers, when writing
about san francisco or los angeles with an all caucasian
cast, should really think about that. it may come
natural in a way, but is it truly realisitc?

yes, tyson, we are all human and do we not all
bleed? but to me, that is an over-simplistic way of
seeing society. how many times have we been made
to check off the color of our skin boxes? we most
certainly categorize, for good or bad, it's there.

and how could we have forgotten OCTAVIA BUTLER?
#44 - February 02, 2009, 08:23 AM
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inspired007

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just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's
something that doesn't need to be considered or
addressed.

do we keep with a male president to the end
of our days because it's "tradition"? or a white one?
(i'm using this just as an example. but you see
what i mean?)

i *don't* think that minority writers need
to be "representers" of their culture / race.
i think it's a huge onus and i think writing is hard
enough as it is. BUT if it is something they feel
they want to do, or feels natural to them, then YES
do it.

i think that non-minority writers, when writing
about san francisco or los angeles with an all caucasian
cast, should really think about that. it may come
natural in a way, but is it truly realisitc?

yes, tyson, we are all human and do we not all
bleed? but to me, that is an over-simplistic way of
seeing society. how many times have we been made
to check off the color of our skin boxes? we most
certainly categorize, for good or bad, it's there.

and how could we have forgotten OCTAVIA BUTLER?

dang, I really wish we could multi-quote. 

I just wanted to say that I don't think minority writers need to be representers of their culture, but I certainly don't think it's a bad thing.  Write what you know.  I know me.  I'm black.  I had cultural experiences that are probably very different from others because I am black.  I also had quite a few that won’t differ at all.
#45 - February 02, 2009, 08:56 AM
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 09:00 AM by inspired007 »

inspired007

Guest
Whoo, is it getting hot in here or what? You ladies are really heating things up! There is so much I want to say, so much people I want to quote. Inspired really put everything in perspective--as I undoubtedly knew she would. (Love you Dr. Murphy!) And there is no doubt in my mind that rbt, whoever he/she is, has an agenda regarding this issue, contrary to what he/she has said. However, eluding to what rbt has said earlier, the Green Lantern is a popular superhero and he is a pivotal member of the Justice League, as far as I am concerned, and this is a huge debate amongst us comic nerds, he is one of the most powerful superheros of all time and everyone seems to like him, regardless of his skin color. Spawn is very popular as well and he was created by a white artist.
It's not that these characters are less commercially viable compared to a white character, it's simply a matter of content. Have you seen the Green Lantern or Spawn in any new material lately? The answer is no, you haven't. And does this mean that they are second string? This too is also an astounding no!

We artists (which includes all of us writers) shape our characters based upon the content: the scenery, the world, the environment, etc., I've said this before but we go where our heart guides us. If it is we see our MC as a big red dog, then that's what we will mold him into. If it is we see our MC as an Arabian knight white Caucasian roots, then that is what our hero will become.
I don't remember who said it, but this member was right when they wrote that most fans of Fantasy are white. I don't think that a writer in their right mind will write a story simply because of this factor, but I know that Hollywood--to make a profit--will.

As a young man I don't understand any of this. If you cut a black or white person the blood is the red, its not green or yellow. If you hurt a black or white person they will cry all the same. Tell them a joke they will laugh, Give them inspiration and they will try and reach for the stars. The only anomaly that logically divides us is our individuality--nothing more, nothing less. Racism is a fabrication of the mind, it is a facade spurred on by our fear of that which we cannot, or refuse to understand.

We may try to address the issue in our fantasy writing, but I believe that this sort of topic is best left for educational books. Do not forget that children can care less what the character in their favorite MG novels look like--I talk to kids all the time and many of them just want the action. (Except the girls though, cause you chicks are wired, you want romance--oh please! There are soap operas for that. :dr) And I understand that parents sometimes do dictate what it is their children read, but like I said, if you base a story around this factor then you lose out on the spectrum of audience in which diversification brings. 


Well said. I agree with mostly everything you said. :yup

Oh, and I completely forgot about Spawn.
#46 - February 02, 2009, 08:56 AM
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 08:58 AM by inspired007 »

inspired007

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By the way, I love this topic.  I think it's necessary to discuss.  When an open dialogue can be had, it works well to heal wounds and open eyes.
#47 - February 02, 2009, 08:57 AM
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 09:01 AM by inspired007 »

Bracken

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Perhaps it's true that most published fantasy has been of the European tradition.  But this is not because the rest of the world does not produce wonderful fantasy.  Many other parts of the world have very, very rich histories of fantasy story-telling.  India, China, Japan, Parts of the Middle East, Africa, South America, as well as Native American story-telling traditions.  And many of these pre-date the European traditions you've listed.  The reason so many European traditions have made it into print is because the keepers of the gates (publishers, editors, booksellers, librarians, publicists, etc.) tend to be predominantly European or of European descent.

That's what I was referring to--published works, especially in Western Europe and the US.  I'm not sure that it's fair to say that the only reason this type of fantasy has been predominantly white is because of the "keepers of the gates," because I do think readers like the medieval European tradition and are looking for another Tolkien (my dad is one of those that grew up with Tolkien and it's influenced his taste in fantasy in a major, concrete way).  I do think that publishers are part of the problem, mainly because they see that kind of fantasy as a "safe bet."  You also have to take into consideration the fact that fantasy hasn't always been as popular as it is today, and there's a lot more room to play around (especially in YA) now that it has gained in popularity.  Many of the other YA Fantasy writers I know are playing around with a more global perspective, which is awesome news.  There's a lot to look forward to in the genre, and I have a feeling in five years you'll find a very diverse group of MCs leading the charge.


ETA--I'm sorry, I'm not trying to make excuses for them.  I'm as upset about this as anyone, but I'm still trying to figure out if there's a root to the problem, or if it has many roots. 
#48 - February 02, 2009, 09:15 AM
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 11:04 AM by Alex Bracken »

This kind of diversity is also present in shows like Avatar, which is insanely popular with kids and even adults.

Unfortunately that's EXACTLY what happened with the Avatar movie.  Most of the fans are in an uproar because they cast all white kids as the main characters and didn't honor the multiculturism of the show at all.  

WHAT? Ridiculous. My kids love the original show exactly the way it is, as do countless other kids. What the (word censored)?
#49 - February 02, 2009, 09:21 AM
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 01:20 PM by Lenzi »

mswatkins

Guest
Fantasy should be played with, expanded on, and in doing so new traditions will emerge.  I think this is what fantasy is about, using your imagination.   There is mythology from around the world that is fascinating and could be very interesting if applied to a story.  And along with this we would have characters of different lands, skin color, and heritage as well.  

There is another fantasy thread (Magic Cliches) that discusses this very idea.  

I feel that if your character is of a minority race, then they simply are, it may be important to the story, or it may not.  It all comes down to the character and what the story is about.

#50 - February 02, 2009, 09:30 AM

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I realize that this is maybe not the best example because it isn't published yet and people can't go out and read it, but what inspired007 is trying to do is, to me, something I'd like to see much, much more of, and I'd like to see it marketed with the regular MG books and not off in a special interest corner. She's got a great MG fantasy with African roots and black characters that, to me as a white reader, is perfectly accessible and interesting (American MC, drawing on African roots for the fantasy element). I would guess that it would hold "exotic appeal" for both black and white readers for different, if overlapping, reasons--white readers because it's new and different, black readers because of a sense of ownership over the magic origins (much like a Russian-American reader might identify with a Slavic-based fantasy on a personal level). I think that kids' books is perhaps the place to start this. Kids aren't born with racial issues--they learn those things. (Actually, my 7-year-old, who can see a full range of color as far as I know, asked me a couple weeks ago what color she was--she might understand hue, but she didn't know where she fit on the race issue. Up until this point I don't think she had any sense of racial identity at all.)

Part of the problem is maybe in marketing. I remember a discussion a while back in a different thread with similar yearnings for multiracial books on a variety of subjects, not just certain genres. And one writer here was frustrated because she'd written general contemporary YA--Just Plain Books--and despite her and her publisher's attempts, her books got shelved in AA in the bookstore. Not only did white readers miss out, but black teens overlooked them, too, since it wasn't with YA.
#51 - February 02, 2009, 09:48 AM

mike

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Part of the problem is maybe in marketing. I remember a discussion a while back in a different thread with similar yearnings for multiracial books on a variety of subjects, not just certain genres. And one writer here was frustrated because she'd written general contemporary YA--Just Plain Books--and despite her and her publisher's attempts, her books got shelved in AA in the bookstore. Not only did white readers miss out, but black teens overlooked them, too, since it wasn't with YA.
That's really frustrating. I think fantasy/sf books tend to not get that treatment very much, except for writers like Octavia Butler. Of course, that's only good for those writing fantasy...
#52 - February 02, 2009, 10:29 AM

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I do think that publishers are part of the problem, mainly because they see that kind of fantasy as a "safe bet." 
You're absolutely right! That is one of the reasons we don't see multi-cultural books on the shelves. And I don't blame your father for being critical of fantasy nowadays, a lot of people think they can do what we do. They don't understand the time it takes to research and write our projects; perfect our writing skills, plots, characters, magic systems, maps, etc., Getting an agent is exceptionally difficult and writing a good query letter is a killer.

As for olmue. I'm sorry that writer's book got stuck in the AA section, (I have no idea what AA means) it seems as though she had a really good story.

As for inspired. Thanks alot I try my best to think before I speak. There's nothing worst than having to defend yourself for saying something dumb.

As for xiaotien. Referencing "we all share one blood" may be simplistic, but it is true--undoubtedly and irrevocably true. You cannot deny the power of that phrase.

As for everyone else. :dr You know me, I gotta say something to lighten the mood. Some people sometimes say "you don't have common sense!" How can you not have an abundance of something (i.e common sense) if it's common?  :moose
#53 - February 02, 2009, 11:18 AM
Wannabe Middle Grade Fantasy author and total superhero geek

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NDM

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ETA--I'm sorry, I'm not trying to make excuses for them.  I'm as upset about this as anyone, but I'm still trying to figure out if there's a root to the problem, or if it has many roots. 

That's what I love: the questioning and challenging and probing.  It means everyone's searching for ways to improve.  That's the whole point in bringing up the tough issues.  So we can tackle them :).

I just realized I used the word "love," like, four times in two posts on this thread :duh.

I do agree with you on the "safe bet" thing.  I think publishers and agents are being forced to think about survival right now and they may certainly be turning toward what is tried and true.  That, sadly, does not always bode well for diverse voices and experiences.

But I do think that real change has to happen on the level where people have the most power to make decisions.  That's what I mean by gate-keepers.  As with television, where many shows have all-white or mostly-white casts (like the show Friends which was in NY but had zero characters of color -- totally unrealistic!), I don't think it's because that's what the public wants to watch.  Or at least I like to think not :P.  But people watch what is on TV.  They pick from what's offered.

With books, buyers can "vote" with their dollars, but in the end, people go to a bookstore and buy what's there -- they can't buy it if it's not there, or if there's only one book with a non-white protagonist and they're not into that particular book.  It's all about options.  And those get drastically reduced when the economy is not booming.

As I wrote above, I do think things are changing.  There are amazing people in decision-making positions who see that there's disparity and are actively engaged with their colleagues in creating change.  To me, that's SO exciting and hopeful.
#54 - February 02, 2009, 01:18 PM

Raynbow

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Raynbow Gignilliat (aka LeFay)  I dont get something.

RBT, I'm sorry, but I read your entire post, and I have no idea, what didn't you get about what I wrote? All I wrote was I read an interesting blog, but chose not to follow their advice.
#55 - February 02, 2009, 02:30 PM

Raynbow

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this is so interesting. i've had this discussion
over at sfnovel as well. writers  were surprised
when i said unless told otherwise somehow, i ALWAYS
assume characters are caucasian.

it's what i grew up reading.
it's what i grew up watching.

why would i think otherwise?

so alas, that blogger's theory does not work with
me as a reader.

There's another reason not to follow that blog's advice! My critique group had quite a lively discussion about that blog after we read it.
#56 - February 02, 2009, 02:34 PM
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 08:13 PM by Raynbow Gignilliat (aka LeFay) »

rbt

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Raynbow Gignilliat (aka LeFay) , you misunderstood. I was saying that I dont understand the wrongs of the things that I mentioned afterwards as being acceptable. I perfectly understood your point of view.
#57 - February 02, 2009, 02:38 PM
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 03:47 PM by rbt »

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To tyson D mcdonald- No, I dont have an agenda. And you dont have to be snide and sarcastic when addressing me. Thanks

:oops I didn't mean to be snide and I'm sorry if I was, but the tone and the manner in which your organized the words in your posts led me to believe otherwise. Again, I'm sorry and I hope you forgive my remarks.

TyDM
#58 - February 02, 2009, 03:03 PM
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I'm very pleased to see such a touchy subject being discussed so maturely by everyone.  Thanks for "playing nice" folks. Being respectful to each other and other viewpoints is the basic building block this entire message board is built on, and it's what keeps this a friendly and enjoyable place to visit for everyone.  Well done, all! 

:cop2 Verla Kay
#59 - February 02, 2009, 03:29 PM
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rbt

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Hey, no prob man. Apology accepted. Guess I took you wrong. Sorry I got a bit snide myself. Maybe I should've worded my comments better. And sorry to everyone here. I dont want anyone thinking I'm a hothead  :flamethrower with an attitude. I'm really a nice guy, honest. :love Anyhow, you have some good points Tyson.  Again, sorry everyone.

 :! Bad rbt! Bad...bad, bad, bad!
#60 - February 02, 2009, 03:40 PM

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