[linda s.]

I also have very strong feelings about the fact that a packager was brought in during the writing process and the huge advance given.  Both smack of marketing campaign from day one. 


Miss P--can you explain what that means, "to bring in a packager" to help with the writing. I saw that written someone else and I have no idea what that means. The whole thing is getting stranger by the minute.

[Pickles]

I think in addition to discussing KV's motivations, what do these increased sales say about our society at large. Sloppy First is also being sold on e-bay, but not at over twice retail value. I just looked briefly, and I didn't see one for over $20.

Why did I look this up? I guessed people might be snatching them for collector's items before they were yanked, and where do people go to sell collector's items? Ebay.

[fuego80027]

I saw the today show interview and they spoke of another incident with another author what was this? can someone explain briefly to me? thanks

[Jen Posts: 1,132 Status: Offline]

My most recent thoughts:

The number of passages copied keeps going up and up, and I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money (not 500k of course, because *I* don't have it) that at least some of the passages listed were copied unintentionally.  Even if Kaavya sat down and copied several of the passages word for word, I'd still be willing to be that at the very least the "something so random" one was unintentional, based on the fact that I've said that exact phrase more times than I can count, and I've never read McCafferty's books (though I did start Charming Thirds yesterday).  I also STILL think that the "170" one was unintentional, because I would like to believe that KV is not the dumbest person on the face of the planet.

I think it's likely that she was influenced unconsciously on some of these items- the question is whether or not you buy it for ALL of them.  Which got me to wondering- which passages do you guys think are the most damning?  For me, I think the "personal space" one is the big one- in part because referencing Human Evolution makes NO sense whatsoever in that context, and in part because I don't think the original sentence's structure was memorable enough or catchy enough to stick in someone's mind years after they read it.  And since when do high schoolers take "human evolution class" anyway?  

It's not that I think it matters whether she lifted one passage or forty- if it was intentional, it was wrong (and if it was unintentional, I think she's still professional culpable, if not morally, because intentionality aside, I have doubts as to whether the book should be left on the shelves).  It's just that when I'm thinking my way through it, I cannot for the life of me believe that they were all intentional, and rather than let that push me to the "none of them were intentional" camp, I thought I'd entertain the idea of the middle position- it's possible that some were and some weren't...

[Pickles]

Well, I don't know about that, but interesting point Jen. I did google up Sloppy Firsts, and learned that my concept of Spam Poetry (turning spam into poems) was not as original as I thought.

I started writing poetry based on spam earlier this year. Now, I sort of figured somebody had already figured this out before me. But what if I had included Spam poetry in a novel? Then I too might be accused of plagiarism.

This would be an example of just getting the same idea...and I don't think that's too far fetched. Also, in my wip my character has a trait similar to a character in another book similar to mine. (Did that make any sense?) Anyway, my point is that some things do happend just by accident.  And I think it's possible for a few passages to have been unintentionally internalized or with some common scenes/language just come up with the same thing. But in this case there seems to be too many to be coincidental.

I don't know Jen. I'll have to think on your theory.

Anyway, so much for "spam poetry."  

[Jen Posts: 1,132 Status: Offline]

Ravelda-

That was more or less my original theory.  The one thing that doesn't sit well with it is the fact that KV is claiming to have read the books in high school, long before she started writing Opal.  I think her statements all give the direct impression that she wasn't reading them for inspiration, and that she didn't read them at all during the writing process, and that makes me doubt her.  I would have believed her if she'd come out and said, "Look, this was all unintentional.  While writing, I was also re-reading a lot of my favorite books, among them Sloppy Firsts.  I just wanted to remember what it was about the genre that I liked so much, and since these were my favorite books, I turned to them to read during the process, but I never deliberately copied anything- I must just have had the phrases on my mind after having read the books so recently."  She very emphatically did NOT say that, because saying that would make her somehow more to blame.  I actually found reading her statement to be pretty off-putting.  All along, I've been in the it-could-have-been-unintentional camp, but I really don't think it could have been unintentional in the way she describes it, which makes me doubt her word altogether.

[jadedmetaphor]

Well, I don't know about that, but interesting point Jen. I did google up Sloppy Firsts, and learned that my concept of Spam Poetry (turning spam into poems) was not as original as I thought.

I started writing poetry based on spam earlier this year. Now, I sort of figured somebody had already figured this out before me. But what if I had included Spam poetry in a novel? Then I too might be accused of plagiarism.

This would be an example of just getting the same idea...and I don't think that's too far fetched. Also, in my wip my character has a trait similar to a character in another book similar to mine. (Did that make any sense?) Anyway, my point is that some things do happend just by accident.  And I think it's possible for a few passages to have been unintentionally internalized or with some common scenes/language just come up with the same thing. But in this case there seems to be too many to be coincidental.

I don't know Jen. I'll have to think on your theory.

Anyway, so much for "spam poetry."  

I think coincidentally coming up with a similar idea (or even a similar character) is very different from including frequent passages with almost the exact same wording. I'm not so sure writing about the same idea is plagiarism (or, I guess, more legally important, copyright infringement?) - It doesn't seem like it should be, to me, so long as what you write is different "enough." There are a bunch of post-Harry Potter wizard school stories out there, but they aren't exactly plagiarized. Further, Jane Yolen had a book out about a wizard school long before Harry Potter came out. I don't think anyone can own a basic idea, it's the exact words, or exact plots/characters (down to exact descriptions, passages, etc.) that seem to cross the line.

Of course, this is just my guess/opinion. I wish we had a legal expert around who could clear up those lines for us... As writers, I'm sure we'd all like to know where they're drawn.

[Laurie]

This whole business makes my head spin!

My husband has written spam poetry, too, Pickles.

 I'm convinced I'm going to write a whole book and discover someone else will have done it before me. Already my last story has a MC with a trait similar to a MC in a published book.  It's a coincidence and a minor point, but I find myself worrying someone will accuse me of "lifting" it.  Jeesh.

Laurie

[Pickles]

I think the books should be yanked, the advance returned, and the movie deal cancelled.

If KV wants to be a published author, she will have to start from scratch again.

It's up to the publisher if they want to do anything more.

[nhasnat]

HEAR HEAR! I ditto Pickles! Now if they would only listen!

NH

[ecb]

Ok, I was staying out because I was incapable of forming so lucid a thought as the rest of you, but I'll respond to Jen's latest question.

First, though... having read all the passages, I'm not terribly impressed by EITHER book!  I suppose argument can be made that either and-or both authors' voices are fresh, lively, authentically teen... but, really.  Still not impressed.  I can't see why anyone would feel so enamored of one to want to "internalize" or plagiarize it--whatever we want to call this.  I will say, though, that MM's prose reads much more smoothly, in every case.  This is almost like the "cheap knock-off" version of SLOPPY FIRSTS--it looks the same on the surface, but lacks the quality and workmanship of the original.

Also, about book packagers... hardly an expert, but I do think that they're both much more widely used and have much less stigma attached to them than we would normally think. Sheree Bykofsky talks some about packaging in THE COMPLETE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO GETTING PUBLISHED, and there's a book packager speaking at the MWG conference this weekend.  Apparently SISTERHOOD OF THE TRAVELING PANTS came through a packager.

Now... per Jen, which passage is the most damning?  For me, from the original set referenced in the first post, it's this one:

‘COME ON, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU’

From page 209 of McCafferty’s first novel:
“‘Uhhhh...I live less than half a mile from here. Twelve Forest Drive.’
“Pause.
“‘So I don’t need a ride...’
“Another pause.
“‘But do you want one?’ he asked.
“God, did I want one.
“He knew it, too. He leaned over the front seat and popped open the passenger-side door. ‘Come on, I want to talk to you,’ he said.”

From page 172 of Viswanathan’s novel:
“‘Sit down.’
“‘Uh, actually...I was just dropping off some books. I’m supposed to be home by nine. And it’s already eight-forty.’
“Pause.
“‘So I can’t really stay...’
“Another pause.
“‘But you want to?’ he asked.
“Did I? Yes...
“He knew it, too. He patted the chair again. ‘Come on, I want to talk to you,’ he said.”

I can understand "internalizing" a colorful phrase.  I CANNOT buy "internalizing" to the point of reproducing the exact structure, down to the sentence count, of the scene.  This isn't just a case of one witty expression slipping into your writing--this is dialogue, reproduced almost verbatim, for seven lines. 

[Jaina]

Pickles, I've been saving those random spam poems for a while, too.  My crit group and I like to make line breaks and find "deep" meaning in all those funny random words.  I always call it "found poetry"--I even submitted some to a website once.  I would say this is not all that uncommon--surely other people, especially writer types, see those lines and think "a poem!"

Look, here's a thread from 2004 where I posted one of the spam poems--"Waiting Winter High Hammer."

http://www.verlakay.com/boards/index.php?topic=2248.0

Anyway, like many have said, writers are bound to come up with some of the same creative craziness.  It's all in the execution.  And executing paragraphs in the exact order with a few substituted phrases is just plain bizarre.

[Frainstorm]

Okay, I'll play What Was Most Damning? First, though, I must say I was very impressed by some of McCafferty's phrasings (but I'm not going to write them in a journal to use later). Many would stick in my mind, at least until I read something new. I enjoy clever phrases like "For the first twelve years of my life, these were the only qualifications I needed in a best friend." It's a fun way to say it, and speaks volumes about the speaker.

Most damning for me was the sadomasochistic gesture of Diet Cokes at Cinnabon versus Diet Cokes at (fill in your mall place that serves opposite-of-diet fare). KV chose to fill in the blank with Mrs. Fields.

I won't espouse a long theory, but you'll never convince me this was all unintentional. Sure, the consequences are unintentional, but the plagiarism was done knowingly. Still, I'm not in the camp of returning the half mill, that seems harsh at first glance.

John

[andracill Posts: 5,803 Status: Offline Worlds within...screaming to get out! WWW]

I don't get this whole 'internalizing' thing in the first place...I read tons of books, and I can quote from any number of them, but I've never reproduced anything that approaches this type of copying.  She didn't simply copy the structure, but the style, the voice.  That's more than internalizing, imo.  That's either using your photographic memory (which, btw, doesn't stand up either, because if her perfect memory can produce such an accurate phrasing, you can also remember where it came from!) -- or putting the book in front of you and copying it down.  Sigh.  Using a similar phrase here and there doesn't constitute plagiarism to me, either-- that's bound to happen.  And of course we can use similar plots (look at Bridget Jones and P&P)....  Yeah, the whole thing is just too bad, too too bad.  And I agree with Kay -- her book deal should be cancelled, the book pulled, and the advance returned (and definitely no movie!)...maybe we should start a petition

[Melanie]

at the risk of sounding like a broken record, i'm going ask again: what is the responsibility of those who read the manuscript (probably many times) before it hit the shelves?  aren't we talking about pro's, some of whom have worked in the industry for decades?  the packager, the editor, the publisher?  isn't it really convenient that one lone 19-year-old girl is taking ALL of the responsibility?  i know that my manuscript was read by at least *three* editors at one house.  surely someone would have caught at least ONE similarity, since the number seems to be steadily rising . . . ?

like some in this thread, i too feel bad for her.  she is going to be scarred by this for life.  she's 19 now, but even when she turns 50, googling her name will undoubtedly bring up this episode in her life.  most of us are allowed to live down our shame, to grow from our mistakes and become better people because of it.  this will follow her around forever.

i can't even imagine some of the shenanigans i pulled at her age being scattered in the spotlight on a global level -- etched in perpetual e-history.  i know i've also blurred those lines of plagiarism during stressful, sleepless term paper/exam days -- some intentionally, others not.  i guess i can be deeply thankful for not receiving a public e-flogging.

for those of you who would revoke her advance, i imagine it probably will be.  i hope that's where it ends.  she does deserve a chance to move on from this -- to learn from it and grow, just like any one of us.

**edited to add: would the fury be as intense if her advance had been the usual 7-10,000 offered to first-time novelists?  either way, there are a lot more people involved in this whole thing, and only her face in the cameras.**

[WG]

I think coincidentally coming up with a similar idea (or even a similar character) is very different from including frequent passages with almost the exact same wording. I'm not so sure writing about the same idea is plagiarism (or, I guess, more legally important, copyright infringement?) - It doesn't seem like it should be, to me, so long as what you write is different "enough." There are a bunch of post-Harry Potter wizard school stories out there, but they aren't exactly plagiarized. Further, Jane Yolen had a book out about a wizard school long before Harry Potter came out. I don't think anyone can own a basic idea, it's the exact words, or exact plots/characters (down to exact descriptions, passages, etc.) that seem to cross the line.

Of course, this is just my guess/opinion. I wish we had a legal expert around who could clear up those lines for us... As writers, I'm sure we'd all like to know where they're drawn.

I'm not a legal expert, nor do I have a photographic memory. But I do recall a lawsuit a few years ago against J.K. Rowling by someone who had written a book about a wizard named Harry (or maybe Henry Potter) who attended a sorcery school.  The suit was dismissed because, apparently, there was no there there (to quote Gertrude Stein). Just coincidental, surface similarities.

[andracill Posts: 5,803 Status: Offline Worlds within...screaming to get out! WWW]

Just a quick addition:  Melanie, I also feel for her - and I hope that if they do revoke her advance, that she can begin again from there.  But I also hope the consequences are serious enough that other young people see that it's not best to take the risk (not just with plagiarism -- with any moral dilemma) -- part of me really thinks she simply thought she could get away with it and that it wasn't that big of a deal...bummer of a way to find out the truth!  And boy, I'm so thankful that I wasn't in the public eye for any reason when I was her age!

[Sudipta]

I just can't stay away from this anymore....

Melanie, when that lone 19-year-old was taking ALL of the money, attention, and fame, no one felt sorry for her.  No one said it is too much responsibility for a teenager to succeed at college and write a book worth a quarter of a million dollars.  And I would assume that editors don't read manuscripts on the assumption that the author might be plagiarizing.  So while it is a little weird that no one caught on to the similarities before, it certainly is no one's fault but KV's that she used another author's words and passed them off as her own.  Why should anyone else bear the brunt of the blame?  She did it.  And no one forced her to.

The thing is, no matter what she wrote, Little, Brown would have pushed it as the best thing since sliced bread -- they invested way too much to let the quality of the book get in the way of what they hyped it as.  So there was no need for corner-cutting.

She does deserve a chance to move on from this -- and she will.  After all, she is 19 and she has a whole life ahead of her.  And while it will remain a perpetual embarrassment, it will soon be replaced by someone else's screw up.  But would you be so forgiving of KV if she was 25 and had done this?  Or 40?  Is it less wrong what she did because she's younger?  Or can we make the argument that a girl smart enough to get into Harvard is smart enough to know you can't copy other people's work and pretend it is your own?  She cannot both profit from her age (look at me!  I'm a brilliant 19 year old and I deserve a huge advance!) and use it as a shield.

Wouldn't it be refreshing, though, if Little, Brown were to stop defending their investment and do the right thing -- pull the contract and make restitution to MM -- without being forced to legally?

[Anne Marie Posts: 2,854 Status: Offline VAMPIRINA season 3 is on Disney Junior now! WWW]

http://fusenumber8.blogspot.com/2006/04/sloppy-stealing.html

Check this out.  It's the blog (great blog, by the way--I read it every day) of a librarian who works in the library where McCafferty had an appearance this afternoon.

AM

[Pickles]

Yes, I don't care what the advance was. If it were fifty cents, she should return it.

Some may be sick of me bringing up my piddly plagiarism cases, but I use them to make my point. In both cases where my friend and I had previously published work lifted, we asked for the plagiarist to return the money. We also asked for our poems to be reprinted and acknowledged properly in the next issue. Our poems had appeared in the same college literary magazine, but separate people plagiarized and had them published in other magazines at other colleges years later. And both plagiarists won prizes.


But I do remember way back when, that both my friend and I were treated as if we should let things drop, not be so  "harsh", have mercy on the plagiarist, etc. We definitely got the feeling that some people wanted us to just go away and quick making a fuss (Administration of the other schools, not ours...the profs and administration at our alma mater were behind us 100%). I think the woman who plagiarized my friend might have had harsher circumstances, as she was a Masters degree student.

Anyway, my point is it's sad when young people do dumb things and screw up their lives, but there still have to be consequences. I think that's only fair to return the money. If you didn't write it, you don't get paid for it. KV didn't write some piddly poem in an obscure collegiate publication; she made a major deal with a huge house. The similarities are so great, that I really think the only solution is to just pull the book out of circulation. Cancel this out. Begin again. Hope that neither her publisher or MM's press any charges against her. Learn from it, and go on with it. The public is fairly forgiving. If she is truly a talented writer, she'll get through this.

Also, most publishing contracts should contain some verbiage wherein the writer certifies the work is original.

[Sudipta]

Pickles, most contracts do say that the author certifies that the work is original and belongs to him/her.  Some of my contracts even state that the author must guarantee that the work is free of any copyright infringements to the best of their knowledge.  Now, of course, we don't know what the LB contract says, and nothing can be done if an author steals someone else's work and then claims that it is his or her own, but most large corporations cover themselves in this way.

The worst thing about this is that it isn't even all that shocking -- how many cases in recent history, from James Frey to that NY Times reporter to the Harvard professor, have there been involving plagiarism?

[LisaWrites Posts: 293 Status: Offline The harder I work, the luckier I get. WWW]

[
I still have a gut feeling that someone else besides KV was behind those passages. She's taking the fall, because they think there will be more pity and compassion for a young girl, and she can play the "It was an accident because I'm super smart with a photographic memory," card.

There's something fishy here. I just feel there's more to the story. I don't think anyone in the publishing industry would be this stupid, but some of her other "handlers" perhaps.

Yes, Pickles, this is my thinking too. I tried getting onto 17th Street Productions website but it's not loading. I'm curious to know if either of MM's books were packaged through them. Not that that's a bad thing - I'm just wondering if there might be one or two people who have worked with both of these authors. Who might they have in common?

I watched the video with Katie Couric and have a gut feeling KV wasn't telling the whole truth when she said she hadn't read those books in years. The interview bothered me a lot. I got the impression she was there for pity. I'm glad Katie was tough on her but KV is laughing all the way to the bank right now. The beginning of the interview said the Harvard paper got an anonymous tip to read Opal and compare it to MM's books. Wow. Either this is a big publicity stunt for both authors or KV confided in the wrong person and got caught. The similarities are too close for this to be accidental internalizing.

Lisa A

[Pickles]

Ack, I've got to stop and do something else. I was trying to post, when Lisa's post came in, and I saw my own words but thought they were Lisas's and thought, "Omg, how did Lisa come up with the same veribiage I used."

Someone could have just noticed the similarities. It's very possible someone read MM's and KV's books close together, and went aha! Of course, it is peculiar that the news broke in the Harvard paper.

Anyway, unless it was taken out of context and there were more words before it the initial response of "No comment. I don't know anything about it." smacks of a cover up.  Or she had been tipped off that the news was about to break.

Seriously, if somebody called you and said that it had just been discovered that your novel was similar to another, wouldn't you act shocked, dismayed, surprised, something...especially if you truly had no idea that you had done it.

I've got to go. I'm supposed to be packing. Ack.

[jadedmetaphor]

Thanks for posting this, Steph. The same article you posted said that MM turned down a Today Show interview because she doesn't want to be seen as using this terrible situation to promote her books...I'm so impressed by how she's handled herself in this tough situation.  It's really a shame KV's book sales have skyrocketed while MM's have slowed- Especially since MM probably won't be able to sue. 

I'm buying Sloppy Firsts- not only because I want to support MM, but also because I thought the passages the media compared to KV's work were far better than KV's reinterpretations, if you can call them that.

Correction: While the campaign for MM's 3rd book has slowed, it does appear sales for her other books, at least, have increased (although not as much as KV's):

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513041

Glad to see MM is benefitting from the publicity, at least.

[steph]

Thanks for posting this, Steph. The same article you posted said that MM turned down a Today Show interview because she doesn't want to be seen as using this terrible situation to promote her books...I'm so impressed by how she's handled herself in this tough situation.  It's really a shame KV's book sales have skyrocketed while MM's have slowed- Especially since MM probably won't be able to sue. 

I'm buying Sloppy Firsts- not only because I want to support MM, but also because I thought the passages the media compared to KV's work were far better than KV's reinterpretations, if you can call them that.

I think MM is handling herself extremely well.  But then again she is media savy is she not, as a former editor at Cosmo. She is one smart cookie!

What I don't believe for one second is the head of Crown's claim that the books, which have been out for all of 10 or 11 days when the **** hit the fan, have suffered a decline in sales. HUH???

I was happily reading along - thinking yeah for MM, very classy (which I still think) and then the BS about the books declining in sales...and then no one wants to book her.

Thanks Ann Marie for posting the 'Librarian' blog - very informative - again MM = smart cookie.  I think we all knew reading that she would be apprearing at the library that so too would the swarms of media - and yet - the head honcho at Crown claims that no one wants to book her... oh ya they want to book her - obviously not to proudly parade her new book - but um in the process of answering the obvious, could she not also proudly talk about her book?  I mean was she scheduled on THE TODAY SHOW previous to this fiasco - I think not.

Note to MM get lemons make lemonade.


** LOL! Jaded posted at the same time

[jadedmetaphor]

I think MM is handling herself extremely well.  But then again she is media savy is she not, as a former editor at Cosmo. She is one smart cookie!

What I don't believe for one second is the head of Crown's claim that the books, which have been out for all of 10 or 11 days when the **** hit the fan, have suffered a decline in sales. HUH???

I was happily reading along - thinking yeah for MM, very classy (which I still think) and then the BS about the books declining in sales...and then no one wants to book her.

Thanks Ann Marie for posting the 'Librarian' blog - very informative - again MM = smart cookie.  I think we all knew reading that she would be apprearing at the library that so too would the swarms of media - and yet - the head honcho at Crown claims that no one wants to book her... oh ya they want to book her - obviously not to proudly parade her new book - but um in the process of answering the obvious, could she not also proudly talk about her book?  I mean was she scheduled on THE TODAY SHOW previous to this fiasco - I think not.

Note to MM get lemons make lemonade.


** LOL! Jaded posted at the same time

I agree MM has been very classy, gracious, and professional. I interpreted the Crown rep's statement differently on my second reading. I think he said the *momentum* from the original release has slowed (which is understandable, considering the bulk of their marketing was likely directed at the release. Plus, the 3rd book doesn't have as much to do with this issue as the others). Also, about booking, I think he meant that they can't book anything they would normally have booked because people only want to hear about/talk about the plagiarism issue, not so much MM's new book. It seems to me that MM doesn't want to talk about the plagiarism issue for various reasons (esp. since she said she didn't want to appear to be using it for promotion). I think that's what he was trying to say, but that's just my interpretation. Regardless, I'm glad MM is getting some good sales for her other books out of this, at the very least.

Also, I can't imagine that KV is coming up with what to say all by herself. She had extreme help getting into college, she had help getting her book published, and since her publisher is standing by her, I imagine she has help, now. I imagine she at least had legal counsel before releasing her statement. Again, this is all wild guessing!

[steph]

 :  Yes, I do believe that KV needs (or likes) her hand held.  That may be the source of most of the problems she is currently facing.

On a different note for those of you wishing that KV has her advance taken back, what if, she is only one small cog in this wheel of deceit - wouldn't her only incentive to keeping her mouth shut and 'falling on her sword' be the advance - let's call it, oh I don't know, hush money.

Me thinks LB will not remove said advance

[Melanie]

On a different note for those of you wishing that KV has her advance taken back, what if, she is only one small cog in this wheel of deceit - wouldn't her only incentive to keeping her mouth shut and 'falling on her sword' be the advance - let's call it, oh I don't know, hush money.

Me thinks LB will not remove said advance

thanks steph, that was my point.  i don't think kv did this all by herself.

the way i see it, a lot of people saw huge dollar signs when they signed kv.  and rather than examining, asking questions, or deliberating, they pushed the whole process through on the fast track.  i'm not exonerating kv, she certainly played her part.  but i am calling into question her being singled out as having done *all* of this to herself.  and yes, it would be different in my book if this had happened to a 25 or 40-year-old.  as someone (jen, maybe? sorry!) mentioned, someone older would have more life experience behind them and would, more likely than not, be better equipped to handle some of the fallout.  also, if there *was* a whole crew behind the *idea* of opal mehta, someone with more experience/years might have handled *that* differently as well.

i completely disagree that the packager, publisher, and editors are absolved of all responsibility.  i would think that, since the editors and publisher are familiar with the ya, chick-lit world, at least *one* of them, somewhere in the two years between idea and going to print, might have read mm's book/s and noticed the similarities.  certainly enough to investigate the matter further.  after all, sloppy firsts was not some obscure novel that went largely unnoticed.  also, what if, as someone said before, she was encouraged to read mm's books as points of reference for what the packager and the publisher had in mind?  if that is the case, the connection between the two is deliberate.

no, no one felt sorry for her when she got the advance (why would they?), or that it might be too much for a college student to be academically successful and write a book worth a lot of money (probably because many have.  some even on this board).  my inclination is to feel for people who are being unfairly mobbed up on.  i'm on board with the fact that kv should face some harsh consequences and that she should never, ever do this again (though i'm sure she's well aware of that herself at this point).  but some of the over-the-top outrage is what gets to me. 

the person who should be *most* outraged, in my view, is mm -- and she seems to be handling it all with more grace and poise than the average observer.

[steph]

Melanie,

Yes, I posted Monday morning regarding this, and my position has not changed.  The agent, editor, packagers all are culpable.

Actually since my post on Monday, I happened upon an article ( pre-scandal) that KV did with a local paper. In reading the details of the deal in KV's own words, I was more convinced than ever that KV did not act alone.


** okay here's the actually link

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxNjcmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY5MTI1MjAmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk3
 

[jadedmetaphor]

On a different note for those of you wishing that KV has her advance taken back, what if, she is only one small cog in this wheel of deceit - wouldn't her only incentive to keeping her mouth shut and 'falling on her sword' be the advance - let's call it, oh I don't know, hush money.

Considering how much KV's parents paid to help get her into Harvard, if there really was some big conspiracy (and I seriously doubt there is), I doubt $500k makes enough difference in their life to be worth KV's dignity.