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Harry Potter--Deathly Hallows discussion: SPOILERS!

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Random question- Harry is Teddy's godfather, yes?  And then both of Teddy's parents die, and Harry mentions that Teddy comes over to dinner several nights a week, but doesn't live with them (and, it sounds like, never has).  So who raised Teddy?  You'd think Harry, after having lost his own parents at the same age and having spent so much time wishing Sirius had been his guardian all along, wouldn't have passed that on to someone else.  I can see him possibly letting Teddy go to Andromeda (she didn't die, right?), since she'd just lost her daughter (and possibly her husband, though I might be making that up).

One friend told me today that her favorite part was when, as he took his last breath, Snape went all "look at me" to Harry, and it later becomes clear that he wanted the last thing he saw to be Lily's eyes.

My biggest beef with the whole Lily/Snape thing was that, when he was groveling and apologizing to her for calling her a mudblood, I was a little surprised she didn't come out and say "You have a choice between me and them and this is the last time you'll EVER get to choose me" instead of saying "you've already made your choice"- did it seem to anyone else like Snape might have actually turned away from it all at that point, just to be a part of Lily's life? 
#61 - July 23, 2007, 12:28 PM

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So, just out of curiosity, what's wrong with being a devoted wife and mother?  I don't think the male characters would have been excellent male characters without the strong support of the women behind them in these books. 

I didn't say there was anything wrong with being a devoted wife and mother. I just wish the female characters weren't always dependent on and supporting the males. I wanted to see strong, independent girls and women. Ginny came close, but never got the chance. Hermione remained in Harry and Ron's shadows. And I'll climb off my soapbox before this turns into a feminist critique of Harry Potter.

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#62 - July 23, 2007, 12:34 PM
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I don't think there is anything at all wrong with being a devoted wife and mother either!!  I didn't mean to imply that; or that there was anything wrong with being brainy (I have some definite Hermione traits myself for goodness sake), or flaky like Luna, who is one of my favorite characters in the series.

BUT...

I just felt like the female characters mostly fit into one of the established "types" for female characters and were almost always overshadowed by the male characters.  Hermione was certainly, as someone said, the "rock" of the book, and I think she'd really grown beyond being the know-it-all brainy girl of the early books.  But I would really liked to have seen more of the girls.
#63 - July 23, 2007, 12:45 PM
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I can see him possibly letting Teddy go to Andromeda (she didn't die, right?), since she'd just lost her daughter (and possibly her husband, though I might be making that up).

Yeah, Ted Tonks died...  I, too, figured that Andromeda probably raised Teddy.
#64 - July 23, 2007, 12:46 PM
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Here's a toast to JK! She has created a classic, that I am certain will stand the test of time.
She has gotten an entire generation to READ.
And countless more to write. Among those I count myself. (although I'm older than the genius herself)

I havealways written, but never with such singleminded purpose as when I picked up a pen four years ago after finishing book 5. She has been my inspiration. And now two finished books (neither published) and deeply engrossed in my third, I raise my glass to this brilliant woman for showing us storytelling at it's best. Maybe not the actual writing craft, but the PLOTTING. God, I love her. She's the real hero for me!!!

I read the book in a day and a half as if I was under an Imperius Curse. And yes...one of my favorite lines was the last thing Dumbledore says to Harry before he comes to and must play dead, "just because it's in your head doesn't mean it's not real." I felt this was a personal message to all of us out here. To believe in the power of our imaginations. To love our characters as she has loved hers.

I was awed the way she revisited all her old books through Harry's own wistful feelings and adventures. It was as if she was bidding them all good bye.

One of my favorite parts was definitely when Molly aced Lestrange. My next favorite part was when Kreacher lead the charge for all the house elves. I never thought I would love Kreacher!! I did not shed a tear for Snape. I'm just pleased Dumbledore's trust in him was not misplaced. She had ME fooled and I am so impressed with that. Saddest part: Dobby's death. So well done, to have Harry dig the grave without magic. It really showed the true measure of the man he'd become. That he had a chance to see his parent's pride in him..also satisfying. And the moment Harry reunites with Dumbledore and he says, "Oh you wonderful boy, you brave, brave man!" That was an high point. Here was Dumbledore telling Harry that Harry was a better man than he. I loved that Dumbledore was truly smarter than Voldemort in the end and that Harry had the chance to demystify Voldemort by simply calling him Tom Riddle. Loved that!!!!

Regrets? i would have liked a little more heat between Ginny and Harry. I mean, yeesh. Oh, hello...nineteen years later we have three little Potters?

I would have liked to see Draco be either remorseful or resetnful or something. And I would really like to know what the heck Harry was doing for 19 years. Writing his memoirs???  :)

Yes.. I predict we have not seen the end of little Teddy the werewolf with the very famous godfather. Nothing JK does is incidental. Why even have him exist, kill off his parents and make Harry his godfather? She didn't say she was going to RETIRE, did she? Or that Harry would never make a cameo appearance in another book.

So here's to the genius. Now JK, let's see you do a Bill Gates and put some of that genius money to "the greater good." Like building schools in Africa. Or libraries in Afghanistan. Or just helping satmp out illiteracy worldwide. You have plenty of time on your hands, now.
#65 - July 23, 2007, 12:55 PM

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Well...Snape might have been Lily's best friend for some of her growing up years, but at the same time, he wasn't an emotionally healthy individual. He was another one of the damaged kids who was raised without love, and Lily was maybe the one person who treated him normally, who loved him like a friend, which made him idolize her to a point that wasn't very healthy. At the same time, though, he was so desperate for love and respect at large that he kept going on with the Death Eaters, never realizing until too late that they were incapable of giving him anything normal and nourishing. There were a lot of things feeding off of each other with Snape; he never was a happy person, and most of it wasn't his fault. But I don't think things would have been magic if Lily had married him, either. Between James and Snape, Lily definitely made the better choice. It's just extremely tragic that Snape was never able to be emotionally healed, and all I can hope is that something good happens to him in "the next great adventure" (ie, death, to cite Dumbledore) to heal him/compensate. (Yes, I'm taking these characters waaaay too seriously! Sheesh--I'm worrying about them in their afterlives!)

And speaking of relationships, I was also very much hoping Ginny would play a significant part. I have a hard time with her being the love of Harry's life, yet hanging out in the background when he's doing the hardest/most significant thing of his life. That is my only big complaint in the whole series. I don't think the females play a secondary role at all--in fact, I find it extremely refreshing to find characters who are smart, willing to sacrifice to fight against Voldemort, and don't feel it's second-best to also have seven children. Sure, the female characters support the male ones here. But the male ones support the female ones, too. Being smart and heroic, and being supportive of others, are not mutually exclusive, even though it seems that way in books sometimes. I didn't feel that Hermione was always in Ron's shadow--in fact, she does quite a few things in the series (and this book), while Ron sits behind in the hospital wing or wherever. But yes, the fact that Ginny was never actively on stage much rather bothered me.

I assume Teddy lived with his grandmother (where he was already living)--since he did have relatives who wanted him, wouldn't it make more sense for him to live with them than a godfather? I concede I don't really know how godparenting works in Britain.
#66 - July 23, 2007, 12:57 PM

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I often see movies and tv shows or read books and get miffed because of the lack of strong female characters.  I can't tell you how many rants I've gone on about the CW now that they're replacing Gilmore Girls and Veronica Mars with Gossip Girl, and all of their supernatural or "hero" themed shows have guy leads (including a new one next season), and as much as I enjoyed the latest Ocean's Eleven movie, I hated it that the only female in the entire thing was characterizated as both a bitca and a skank, and everyone else (including all the members of the winning team) were male.  As a reader and a viewer, I'm definitely sensitive to that kind of thing, and I love girl power as much as anyone.  That said, I didn't have ANY problems with Harry Potter.  Hermione was and is, at many points in time in the series and in the final book, the strongest of the three.  Her kindness and compassion is what compels Harry to treat Kreacher well, and Harry's kindness towards the house elves is one of the things that other characters note as setting him apart from other wizards.  She's the one who packed their things and planned ahead for their journey, the one who stuck by Harry when the going got tough (even when Ron did not), and she was one of two people who Harry really wanted to see after it was all over.  In this book, more than any other, she was every bit as much Harry's friend as Ron was, and she was a heckuva lot more loyal.  Don't even get me started on the fact that she stood up to TORTURE, survived the Cruciatus curse, and managed to keep her wits about her enough to lead Bellatrix astray, even under extreme duress.  She knew- more than Ron, I think- what supporting Harry was going to cost, and she even gave up her FAMILY and erased their memories of her to go with Harry.  She was on the front lines until the very end, fighting Bellatrix along with Luna and Ginny.  She's smart and brave and can kick butt when she needs to, and Rowling makes it clear that Harry wouldn't have survived or been victorious without her. 

Just because we didn't get the archetypal sassy, sarcastic, butt kicking warrior girl doesn't mean that the girls we did get are weak.  Hermione DEFINITELY isn't.  Mrs. Weasley took Bellatrix down, where countless others had failed.  Lily Potter was strong enough to really try to be there for Snape, year after year, until she knew it couldn't go on any longer, and she sacrificed her life for Harry, and in doing so, took Voldemorte down the first time.  It wasn't James who did that- though it's clear he loved them, too- it was Lily.  As for Ginny, she may have spent most of her time off screen, but it's clear that offscreen, she was kicking as much booty as ANYONE.  Everything that was going on at Hogwarts, she was in the middle of it.  She and Luna were every bit as instrumental as Neville in Dumbledore's Army, and she risked being tortured by the sadistic Death Eater teachers with each and every move.  In this book, it seems clear that INSIDE of Hogwarts is just as dangerous a place to be as out.  Luna was kidnapped, but remained strong and sweet- and Mr. Ollivander credits her with getting him through the experience. 

Strong females come in every shape and size.  To me, saying that Harry Potter didn't have strong female characters is narrowing the scope of what it means to be a strong female to a very narrow description.  We might not have had a Buffy, but from my viewpoint, we darn well had strong females of all shapes and sizes, every bit the equals of the men in the story.
#67 - July 23, 2007, 01:18 PM

If any of you read the NYTimes review (which was published BEFORE the book was released), JKR was quoted as saying that this was, in fact, the end of HP books, but that she wasn't closed to the idea of more spin-off books later - much later down the road.

Was it just me, or was the last line of the whole book ringing in anyone else's ears as the first line of the spin-off, in which HP might be a minor character:

"The scar had not pained Harry for nineteen years.  All was well."

Sounds like a prophetic opening line to me!


buglady
#68 - July 23, 2007, 01:24 PM

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Read my post..
JW

It SURE does!!!

YAY!!!
#69 - July 23, 2007, 01:55 PM

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Just because we didn't get the archetypal sassy, sarcastic, butt kicking warrior girl doesn't mean that the girls we did get are weak.  Hermione DEFINITELY isn't. 

I actually agree with this. I'm so tired of tough-talking, snarky, butt-kicking women who think violence equals strength. I just wish that Ginny was right there with Harry, more important to the plot, but then I suppose she would clash with Hermione for that role. Still.... there's something about all the females supporting the males I don't quite like. I definitely don't mean that providing support is bad. Certainly not. To me, it seems like they're locked into feminine roles they can never transcend from. But--and this is a big but--I still love these books. I don't dislike the female characters. I don't want to pick them to pieces in the name of feminist debate. I've had enough of that since the last college class I took.

Karen
#70 - July 23, 2007, 01:57 PM
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 02:11 PM by Ravelda »
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I think perhaps I'm not being clear enough...  I actually really don't need to see more a** kicking from the girls, or traditional strength.  The girls in the story definitely display strength of many kinds.  I have never liked or identified with the kind of girls who just kick butt and take names and make snappy comments and never cry.  Not that there's anything wrong with that kind of character either--it's just not my type. 

It's actually more like "coolness" factor I'd like to see more of.  Which is all a matter of opinion, for sure.  But I feel like most of the coolness factor went to the boys.  Like the Marauders (Pettigrew aside).  Snape.  Fred and George.  These are the characters who have "It", to me, whether I like them or not--and I'm no big Snape fan, here, but I'll admit he's got some coolness factor.  I don't feel like they have female equivalents.  It's in the realm of "quirky side characters", not whether or not Hermione was an equal to Ron and Harry--I'll easily agree that she was; in many ways I thought she was the toughest one, yet always believably female.

I think I really like Luna because, to me, she's one of the only girls that has that elusive quality I'm looking for--a likable quirkiness that makes me remember her.  Like I said, this part is all a matter of opinion.  Some people hate Luna; some people might not think the male characters I listed are particularly cool.  That's all I'm talking about, I'm just saying.

That, and the fact that there are simply FEWER female characters of note. 
#71 - July 23, 2007, 02:29 PM
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Okay, I've never gotten into taking a Harry Potter book apart much, so I admit I skimmed this discussion in order to get to the important stuff--my opinion. (grin) I'm kidding, I'm kidding!
My favorite part was the Ron/Hermoine thing. Sure, I knew it was coming, but it was cute and well-handled and I'm a sucker for good romance. (grin) Best line for me was Harry when Hermoine's flung herself at Ron at last..."Oi! There's a war going on here!" Cracked me up. (grin)
Yeah, Ginny was a little disappointing.
And oh man, why Fred? What happened to George without him? That one was the most depressing part of the whole thing...(sigh)
AMY
Cool book, though!
#72 - July 23, 2007, 05:08 PM

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I think it would be imprinted with all four houses! (clever, leeth!) Hail JK...I feel like thanking her for all she's done for me.
That ability, the ability to pull strands together is what I admire most about her writing, AND I think what inspires me most as a writer. I love a great plot!
The world she has created is one of the greatest masterpieces of all time. Many lesser books have sold! I take solace in that.
#73 - July 23, 2007, 06:24 PM

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I'm done.  And I'm exhausted.  And I loved it.  And I'm so happy to have this discussion to read tonight after I finished because my 11-year-old, who finished BEFORE me, has already gone to bed.  There were so many parts of this book that I loved, so many great lines. 

I was glad that Snape turned out to be loyal to Dumbledore.   Not so much because I liked Snape, but because I didn't want Dumbledore to be wrong. I'm pleased (and okay, a little smug, too) that I was right about Snape killing Dumbledore on Dumbledore's own orders.  I wasn't bothered by the revelations about Dumbledore as others were, because I think a great character without flaws loses some of his reality.  To me, it made Dumbledore more heroic, more real, to know that he had weaknesses and acknowledged them.  Dumbledore, you'll remember, told Harry in the first book that our choices in life are what define us.

I had suspected since Book Six that Harry himself was one of the Horcruxes, but this line in Chapter 6 of DEATHLY HALLOWS confirmed it for me.  When they were discussing Horcruxes and the diary, Hermione said, "You're in trouble if you get too fond of or dependent on the Horcrux." 

One of the speakers at Vermont College's Special Event day last weekend (I can't remember which one...sorry) talked about the Harry Potter phenomenon and the future of these books, acknowledging that they'll never be read the same way again because the sense of waiting...the suspense...will be gone.  Just as we can't appreciate Dickens in the way his contemporaries did, future readers may love Harry, but not with the same fervor and anticipation that we all felt Friday night.  I am thankful to have been a part of it.
#74 - July 23, 2007, 08:04 PM
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If Ginny is a really powerful witch and definitely Harry's match, why isn't she alongside him, just as important to the plot? It almost seems like Ginny could be in a coma for the duration of Deathly Hallows and it wouldn't make any difference. Yes, she's helping by being in Dumbledore's Army, but she's just one of many. Where's her turn in the spotlight? Even Dobby and Neville got their chances.

I totally agree because I was expecting a bigger role from Ginny in this book than she played - especially at the end (although I'm all for Molly Weasley being the one to take down Bellatrix - it was unexpected and fun!) and I was really disappointed that she didn't.  But from all the information we get about her from the other books we do know that she is definitely a powerful witch.

I'm sorry but I just don't see any sexism in Harry Potter at all.  Sure the guys were drooling over the Veela's but the girls went crazy for Viktor Krum in the same way.  I personally loved all the female characters and felt there presence in the novels was as strong as the males.  Just because Harry (the lead) was male but look at Ron and Hermoine, not Harry and two other boys.  Harry happily put girls as equals to him and it definitely wasn't a book of all the boys out having adventures while the girls sit at home and knitted.  They told Ginny not too fight cause she was under age, not because she was a girl!  (still I was definitely expecting her to rebel against that.)

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Okay, I've never gotten into taking a Harry Potter book apart much, so I admit I skimmed this discussion in order to get to the important stuff--my opinion. (grin) I'm kidding, I'm kidding!

hehe that made me laugh!! :dr

Speaking of under age ... poor little Colin Creevey :( 



#75 - July 23, 2007, 09:26 PM

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Thanks Kirsty. (grin)
Yeah, Colin was sad. (sigh)
And I never could see the thing with Viktor, myself...although it was funny when Harry was heading him away from Ginny. (grin) "Vat is the point of being a superstar Quidditch player if all the pretty girls are taken?" Or something like that.
AMY
#76 - July 24, 2007, 05:05 AM

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Okay, I've never gotten into taking a Harry Potter book apart much, so I admit I skimmed this discussion in order to get to the important stuff--my opinion. (grin) I'm kidding, I'm kidding!
My favorite part was the Ron/Hermoine thing. Sure, I knew it was coming, but it was cute and well-handled and I'm a sucker for good romance. (grin)

My friend and I were discussing the Ron/Hermione thing the other day and we both agreed that romance in general is handled very poorly in rowling's books.  I'm fine with seeing this coming a mile away, romance doesn't always have to be about surprise, but I think the timing and the manner of Ron & Hermione's kiss was kind of...tacked on.  The nature of Harry and Ginny's relationship seemed really superficial as well.  In book 5, she's portrayed as this very talented, brave, powerful witch, but Harry doesn't really fall for her until book 6 and more so in book 7, but she doesn't really do much.  It's just snogging or physical attraction, and by that age (16-17) a person is capable of starting to have a real emotional connection beyond something as shallow and superficial as "You're hot let's snog"

The epilogue, I thought, read like cheap fanfiction.  I know she wrote the thing years ago and probably had some emotional attachment to it, but this is a clear cut case of when to "Murder your darlings." She needed to bury that and make a new one.  It was too saccharine and hokey (ASnd Albus Severus Potter is a terrbile name.  So is Scorpius, come to think of it)

Aside from the cheap "romance," being a bit overlong at parts, and the epilogue, the rest of the book was great fun. 

Grungotts was fantastic, how it turned into such a fiasco.  The battle of hogwarts was likewise awesome.  And Neville...man, that guy needs his own series.  Three cheers for Neville! I really wanted him to be the one to put Bellatrix down.  Mrs. Weasly was okay though.   
#77 - July 24, 2007, 09:26 AM

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Yeah...yay for Neville! A series for Neville!  :dancing:
#78 - July 24, 2007, 09:34 AM

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I didn't like the epilogue either. Felt like someone else wrote it, like you said, Justin.
And in some slight defense of Rowling's approach to romance...she's writing this stuff for ages 5-adult, more or less. I agree it's not always well handles, but I'm not sure she could do it different and keep it okay for everyone. I mean, I thought Harry and Ginny seemed a bit superficial too, but what else could she have done? Have Ginny run away with Harry and Ron and Hermione? That would break up the Power Trio.
I know she doesn't want to write any more about these guys, and I TOTALLY don't blame her, but I'd have loved to see Harry's last year at Hogwarts. I'm sure that the past year wouldn't count for any of the students, seeing as they were being force-fed Dark Arts and all. I'm thinking the high muckety-mucks would call a total do-over on that one. (grin)
AMY
#79 - July 24, 2007, 11:05 AM

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I actually really liked that in the end Voldemort kind of killed himself.  It was really clever of Harry and a bit of a risk.  I thought it was way better than a fight to the death where then Harry would cleverly cast a spell under his arm or something.  We already got that kind of moment with Mrs Weasley and Bellatrix.  Needed a different death for Voldemort.  Liked it a lot!
#80 - July 24, 2007, 01:39 PM

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Loved it! Cried at the death parts.

Only disappointments: Fred's death
                               Snape not having a 'braver' death where he died with dignity. But...I'm sure
                                she had her reasons for doing it that way.
                               
#81 - July 24, 2007, 06:03 PM
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It's actually more like "coolness" factor I'd like to see more of...Like the Marauders

Ok now I get what you mean :)  Never really thought about it before but I would agree with that ... except that I would have to say that I don't see that being limited to the females ... I think Fred and George were the only current pupils at Hogwarts that matched the Marauders in 'coolness'.  Harry rocks but he's really more of a 'sweet' kid who just found himself in the situation he did rather than being cool like the Marauders were.  Does that make sense? 

Maybe the 'next generation' they'd find that coolness again ... led of course by Rose and Lily  :)
#82 - July 24, 2007, 06:23 PM

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Love Love Loved this book. I think it's one of my favorites of the series. My only problem with this book was something that happened in the letter Lily wrote to Sirius. Does a baby that's a little over one year old REALLY possess the motor skills and balance to ride and control a flying broomstick?
I know, I know. That's a horribly picky thing to say. Sorry. That just REALLY bugged me that Harry would be ZOOMING around the room when he's barely learned to walk without falling over.
I still love Harry Potter!!! :lov:
#83 - July 24, 2007, 06:41 PM

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In any case, RIP Snape.  You're definitely one of the most complex and awesome characters to in recent history.  Many many kudos to JK Rowling for creating him!

I totally agree with all of your thoughts on Snape. He deserved a much better death than that. I felt somewhat cheated.

Karen
#84 - July 24, 2007, 10:38 PM
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Courtney, those are really interesting points.  I also thought that Snape was going to have his glorious moment to step into the line of fire, and I wish he had.  I think, though, that if Harry had been in a position to choose whether or not to trust Snape before he had solid proof, he would have chosen NOT.  I mean, he'd seen Snape murder Dumbledore.  It would take some pretty powerful proof to overcome that.

I don't think that J.K. meant to be too judgmental of Snape, or else she wouldn't have had Harry name his son after him.  In fact, I wonder if that's why she didn't give him a blatantly heroic death.  Maybe she thought that would have made it look like it was his only his death that Harry appreciated, rather than all the sacrifices he'd made during his role as double-agent.

Also interesting points about Lily giving up on Snape too early.  You made me want to go back and re-read that chapter.  I think, though, that Lily didn't accept Snape's apology because he only felt sorry for calling HER a mudblood.  He still didn't see why it was wrong to call OTHER people mudbloods.  Sort of the same character flaw that Dumbledore pointed out later, when Snape was frantic over Lily being in danger but didn't much care what happened to James or Harry.  He might have loved Lily more than she deserved, but he loved other people less than they deserved.

Gosh, I love this series.  There is so much there to discuss!
#85 - July 24, 2007, 10:40 PM

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I just finished reading the book... I'm either way too busy or way too slow a reader, I was shocked at how quickly some of you got through it!  I skimmed over some of the discussion in this thread but realized that, as is often true for me, going the overly-analytical route ruins a great story that touched my soul.  SO I stopped reading it, but I can't help adding my 1:30 am 2 cents.  And this is what I have to say.

Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak. 

And thank you Ms Rowling, for creating these characters that so many love so dearly.
#86 - July 25, 2007, 01:41 AM

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I finally finished this last night --days after my kids -- and I am quite satisfied. Mmmm.
#87 - July 25, 2007, 06:29 AM
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LOVE all the thoughts about Snape...I totally agree, and I like ideas about why his death/life are so embedded in me (and niggle at me so).

I've already rewritten (in my head) the end of the wedding to include Ginny defying everyone else and tagging along with the Trio...I may have to rewrite parts of the end for Snape's justice, as well.  More about that on my blog, if you're interested (or want to argue with me, he-he). :D

It's great to find a book and characters that have become such a part of our lives -- huge kudos to JK!!!
#88 - July 25, 2007, 08:15 AM
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Unspun: A Collection of Tattered Fairy Tales: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BSR6CPJ/
Website: www.robinprehn3r.com

My kids got to read it first.... but they gave no spoilers and I got it on Monday.  One of my favorite scenes is when they ride the dragon to break out of Gringotts Bank.  I enjoyed the book, but felt part of it was slow, compared to her normal style.
#89 - July 25, 2007, 09:56 AM
Sarah Blake Johnson, MFA
http://sarahblakejohnson.blogspot.com/
Crossings (2017, Cedar Fort)

Z-cat

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Today I put the dust jacket on Deathly Hallows, and stowed it up on the shelf at the end of the row.  And even though Smape was the character I was most curious about, and Fred's death was the worst moment of the whole series (for me) I think I'm going to miss Hermione most of all...

Did anyone else find it hard saying goodbye to the Dursleys? It was so weird... they are such wonderful villains, so perfectly awful and detestable, but they were right at the core of the story, really. Book one opens with them, and that's where Harry starts each adventure from there on. And he would never be the person he is if they hadn't raised him. It was really concrete for me, that this was the end of the road, when they walked out and you knew they were never coming back.
#90 - July 25, 2007, 10:22 AM

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